FBI 9mm carry loads
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SelfProclaimedExpert
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I had thought they were carrying .40.
clubsoda22
member
i would never listen to what the FBI says is the best ammo. Remember when they were telling everyone that 147gr 9mm's were the way to go? Now downloaded .40's. I'm waiting to see something absolutely outrageous like 357 sig downloaded to 9mm velocities. That would be a hoot.
Dean Speir
Member
Everyone was trying to get into the ".40 S&W game" with the 180-grain in which the caliber was introduced by Winchester and S&W at the January 1990 SHOT Show. Other manufacturers and OEMs had been going nuts trying to get a 180-grain bullet… any 180-grain bullet… to perform with reasonable accuracy so they could get on dealer shelves with product.
The problem was that the .40 S&W's 1:16½-inch twist specified by Kevin Foley at Smith & Wesson, and the 180-grain projectile @ 950 fps (originally 980 fps) developed by Olin, was a bad marriage, and if you recall, Winchester quickly introduced a pair of 155-grainers (one in STHP) in an attempt to deflect the consumer dissatisfaction with their original product.
CorBon, who'd been looking to produce a near Mach II 10mm with a lightweight projectile, jumped into the .40 S&W race with a 135-grain, a 150-grain, the obligatory 180-grain… and almost as an afterthought, a 165-grainer, probably simply because Sierra offered a .400 bullet in that weight.
From the jump, it performed heads and shoulders above all the other .40 S&Ws, even at the elevated velocities that Pete likes to push his product. It was accurate, it was consistent, and most importantly, non-CorBon samples in that weight weren't showing any of the signs of increased pressures that have plagued the chambering from the start.
Calling the FBI's .40 S&W issue round "downloaded" is silly (not to mention unsupportable), and to disdain it in the manner you have, is ignorant.
The FBI makes enough blunders without creating another out of wholecloth!
What's a "hoot" is the breadth of your lack of knowledge about the "mid-range" (165-grain) .40 S&W, the projectile weight which has been the superior performer in that chambering since Peter Pi (who, given his pursuit of the hot-rodded 135-grain JHPs, clearly didn't know what he had wrought) back in mid-1991, at a time when the cartridge had been in commercial production barely a year.
Everyone was trying to get into the ".40 S&W game" with the 180-grain in which the caliber was introduced by Winchester and S&W at the January 1990 SHOT Show. Other manufacturers and OEMs had been going nuts trying to get a 180-grain bullet… any 180-grain bullet… to perform with reasonable accuracy so they could get on dealer shelves with product.
The problem was that the .40 S&W's 1:16½-inch twist specified by Kevin Foley at Smith & Wesson, and the 180-grain projectile @ 950 fps (originally 980 fps) developed by Olin, was a bad marriage, and if you recall, Winchester quickly introduced a pair of 155-grainers (one in STHP) in an attempt to deflect the consumer dissatisfaction with their original product.
CorBon, who'd been looking to produce a near Mach II 10mm with a lightweight projectile, jumped into the .40 S&W race with a 135-grain, a 150-grain, the obligatory 180-grain… and almost as an afterthought, a 165-grainer, probably simply because Sierra offered a .400 bullet in that weight.
From the jump, it performed heads and shoulders above all the other .40 S&Ws, even at the elevated velocities that Pete likes to push his product. It was accurate, it was consistent, and most importantly, non-CorBon samples in that weight weren't showing any of the signs of increased pressures that have plagued the chambering from the start.
Calling the FBI's .40 S&W issue round "downloaded" is silly (not to mention unsupportable), and to disdain it in the manner you have, is ignorant.
The FBI makes enough blunders without creating another out of wholecloth!
Drifting Fate
Member
I don't know what the FBI is issuing now, but some of the first 165grn. 40S&W loads on the market were indeed "downloaded." This was to cater to the market of the "my gun kicks too hard" crowd.
They (the rounds, but probably the whiners, too) were abysmal failures, and heaped insult to injury by not only being poor ballistically but also in not generating enough recoil to properly cycle pistols with 100% reliability.
Since then, some makers have found that the 165grn. bullet on top of a full charge, working at full pressure is indeed a thing of beauty.
Still, the stigma carries on from some of those early rounds. I haven't kept up with the voodoo science of defensive ammo, but I would expect someone (probably Federal) is still making a medium velocity 165grn round.
So, we can't scoff at all 165grn rounds, but we can't praise all of them, either.
Besides, we are talking the Feds here - they probably would cut the balls off a great round. Oh, wait, they already have done that, twice.
They (the rounds, but probably the whiners, too) were abysmal failures, and heaped insult to injury by not only being poor ballistically but also in not generating enough recoil to properly cycle pistols with 100% reliability.
Since then, some makers have found that the 165grn. bullet on top of a full charge, working at full pressure is indeed a thing of beauty.
Still, the stigma carries on from some of those early rounds. I haven't kept up with the voodoo science of defensive ammo, but I would expect someone (probably Federal) is still making a medium velocity 165grn round.
So, we can't scoff at all 165grn rounds, but we can't praise all of them, either.
Besides, we are talking the Feds here - they probably would cut the balls off a great round. Oh, wait, they already have done that, twice.
Drifting Fate
Member
Oh, yeah, for the record, the last Feds I talked with (been a couple of years) were still carrying Federal Hydra-Shoks, 147grn, 9mm.
Mannlicher
Member
My Bro in Law was carriyng that ugly 10mm S&W until he retired a few years back. He says that the 10, 9, .45 auto and .40 are all being carried now.
Snowman92D
Member
Speer Gold Dot 9mm 147-grain jhp.
Dean Speir
Member
This real problem is…
…that some might read this and think you have some special information.
The 165-grain .40 S&W is what it is, and pretty much always has been.
It is an excellent performer, and should replace the 180-grain as the standard weight in that chambering.
…that some might read this and think you have some special information.
None of this has any basis in reality.
The 165-grain .40 S&W is what it is, and pretty much always has been.
It is an excellent performer, and should replace the 180-grain as the standard weight in that chambering.
Drifting Fate
Member
Special information?
Nothing special there at all, just a bit of a history lesson about how the round developed. No secret laboratories or black government tests, at least not that I know of.
Just the facts, and not from books, but from living through it (cripes, it wasn't THAT long ago.)
Things may be different now, but that's how it happened, and that's why people talk about "downloaded 165grn .40 loads."
Nothing special there at all, just a bit of a history lesson about how the round developed. No secret laboratories or black government tests, at least not that I know of.
Just the facts, and not from books, but from living through it (cripes, it wasn't THAT long ago.)
Things may be different now, but that's how it happened, and that's why people talk about "downloaded 165grn .40 loads."
clubsoda22
member
Lets look at the federal hydrashok, which is what the FBI seems to prefer. It can be purchaced in the following loads
180gr/990fps/390ftlbs
165gr/980fps/350ftlbs
155gr/1140fps/445ftlbs
135gr/1190fps/420ftlbs
Interesting that the 165gr load, that is 15 grains lighter than the 180gr load, is 10 fps slower. No, can't be that it's downloaded. Must just slow down quicker in the 3 inches between the muzzle and chronograph due to it's weight.
What was that about my claim being unsupportable?
You know what's a "hoot" dean, the fact that i'm lauging at you because you did all that typing without bothering to do some simple research. This seems to be a common theme with people who claim that i don't know what i'm talking about.
180gr/990fps/390ftlbs
165gr/980fps/350ftlbs
155gr/1140fps/445ftlbs
135gr/1190fps/420ftlbs
Interesting that the 165gr load, that is 15 grains lighter than the 180gr load, is 10 fps slower. No, can't be that it's downloaded. Must just slow down quicker in the 3 inches between the muzzle and chronograph due to it's weight.
What was that about my claim being unsupportable?
You know what's a "hoot" dean, the fact that i'm lauging at you because you did all that typing without bothering to do some simple research. This seems to be a common theme with people who claim that i don't know what i'm talking about.
Probably the correct desription of the 165-grain Hydra-Shok as used by the FBI (and numerous other LEAs) is "medium velocity" not "downloaded." It is a round designed to work in the 950 -1000 fps range, and it does work well. It is all the bullet the design/engineering.
If you do not need to go 1000-1050 fps to acheive good terminal performance (and you don't), then why go there? If the manufacturer can design a bullet that performs its intended mission at a medium velocity, why subject agents (and weapons) to unneeded recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flip, etc.? In other words, those extra 100-150 fps about which you are worrying result in absolutely no increase in effectiveness, but they do increase wear and tear on the weapon, and might make it harder for some agents to shoot quickly and accurately.
So long as the round does it job well (it does), is accurate (it is), it easy to shoot (it is) and is easy on the weapon (it is), it seems to be kind of foolish to denigrate a round because you believe it should go 100 fps faster. Sounds to be more like a case of not understanding what makes a handgun round effective and "machisimo" rather than catering "to the market of the 'my gun kicks too hard' crowd."
If you do not need to go 1000-1050 fps to acheive good terminal performance (and you don't), then why go there? If the manufacturer can design a bullet that performs its intended mission at a medium velocity, why subject agents (and weapons) to unneeded recoil, muzzle blast, muzzle flip, etc.? In other words, those extra 100-150 fps about which you are worrying result in absolutely no increase in effectiveness, but they do increase wear and tear on the weapon, and might make it harder for some agents to shoot quickly and accurately.
So long as the round does it job well (it does), is accurate (it is), it easy to shoot (it is) and is easy on the weapon (it is), it seems to be kind of foolish to denigrate a round because you believe it should go 100 fps faster. Sounds to be more like a case of not understanding what makes a handgun round effective and "machisimo" rather than catering "to the market of the 'my gun kicks too hard' crowd."
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clubsoda22
member
It's downloaded, if it was fully loaded you'd be getting 1150fps velocities like corbon. Note that the 155 grain is much closer as you could only reasonably push 1200fps from that.
Not saying that it's not effective. Just the FBI doesn't have the best record of picking the MOST effective ammo.
Not saying that it's not effective. Just the FBI doesn't have the best record of picking the MOST effective ammo.
At the time of the Miami shootout the FBI load for 9mm was a 115 gr Winchester Silvertip, that was also the HRT load.
Only ONE agent was armed with a 9mm, and he scored a killing shot the guy just didn't die fast enough, but the guy hit with the 9mm was NOT the guy doing all the shooting back. (Ok apparently I was wrong about that)
The gunfight was ended with a head shot from a .38+p at point blank range.
I STILL don't get why the 9 got such a bad rap over this one incident.
Only ONE agent was armed with a 9mm, and he scored a killing shot the guy just didn't die fast enough, but the guy hit with the 9mm was NOT the guy doing all the shooting back. (Ok apparently I was wrong about that)
The gunfight was ended with a head shot from a .38+p at point blank range.
I STILL don't get why the 9 got such a bad rap over this one incident.
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How can you not be with Clubsoda on this one.
The Federal Hydrashok 165 gr is actually slower than their 180 grain load, you get medium velocity by downloading, no
For the record, I don't appreciate members calling me, or anyone else ignorant.
We're only discussing ammunition here, it's hardly worthy of such an abject display of bad manners.
The Federal Hydrashok 165 gr is actually slower than their 180 grain load, you get medium velocity by downloading, no
For the record, I don't appreciate members calling me, or anyone else ignorant.
We're only discussing ammunition here, it's hardly worthy of such an abject display of bad manners.
Wrong. SA Dove hit Platt with a 9mm 115-grain JHP fatally as Platt was climbing out of the passenger side window. After taking the fatal hit, Platt proceded to kill SA Dove and SA Grogan as well as severely wounding one or two other agents with his Mini-14. SA Mireles stopped Platt with .38 Special 158-grain +P LSWCHP, but by that time the damage had been done.
As for the rest, who cares if it's "medium velocity" or "downloaded." It is just a matter of rhetoric though "medim velocity" is the correct terminology (and possible less offensive to some). The fact remains there has been tremendous progress in the development of effective handgun ammunition in the last twenty years. Today, we have better, more effective ammunition than we have ever had before. It is largely due to the FBI's research, and the standards it has established. We have better handgun (more effective) handgun ammuntion for law enforcement and self defence because the FBI set a standard and the manufacturers are manufacturing to that standard.
clubsoda22
member
didn't i say that?
the DOWN LOADED .40 is just fine as an ammo choice. Though I prefer full power loads because i know i can handle the recoil.
However, i do use DOWN LOADED law enforcement ammo in my shotgun because the full power stuff is to hard on my shoulder and i don't want ammo that makes me think twice before shooting in a defensive gun.
As far as the FBI and police agencies are concerned, the DOWN LOADED .40 may be the perfect choice as they have to equip a wide variety of agents and officers, some of which can not handle recoil.
However, for Joe Citizen, just going with whatever the FBI uses and assuming it is the MOST effective ammo is flawed. It is not the most effective in terminal ballistics, but it is a good comprimise if you are a person who can't handle the kick.
JC: To hell with semantics. "Down Loaded" is not offensive, it's accurate. That particular cartrige is a watered down .40. "Medium Velocity" I guess is the politically correct way of saying it.
the DOWN LOADED .40 is just fine as an ammo choice. Though I prefer full power loads because i know i can handle the recoil.
However, i do use DOWN LOADED law enforcement ammo in my shotgun because the full power stuff is to hard on my shoulder and i don't want ammo that makes me think twice before shooting in a defensive gun.
As far as the FBI and police agencies are concerned, the DOWN LOADED .40 may be the perfect choice as they have to equip a wide variety of agents and officers, some of which can not handle recoil.
However, for Joe Citizen, just going with whatever the FBI uses and assuming it is the MOST effective ammo is flawed. It is not the most effective in terminal ballistics, but it is a good comprimise if you are a person who can't handle the kick.
JC: To hell with semantics. "Down Loaded" is not offensive, it's accurate. That particular cartrige is a watered down .40. "Medium Velocity" I guess is the politically correct way of saying it.
Drifting Fate
Member
Are you telling me that we are worrying about being PC on a gun-board? 
clubsoda22
member
seems like it....I don't get it either.
It might have prevented terms like "idiot" being used--or somebody screaming "DOWN LOADED"--which nobody likes to see in the forum (and it is correctly described as "medium velocity").
As far as "most effective in terminal ballistics" go, I have seen no credible research that would support your assumption that driving a 165-grain Gold Dot a 100 fps faster would significantly increase (or decrease) the effectiveness of the bullet--so, while you can "handle the recoil," that's all you are gaining, just more recoil not more effectiveness (and maybe, just maybe, with a good medium velocity load you could get that second or third shot just a tad faster and a tad more accurately--and that, friend, could increase the effectiveness a whole lot more than 100 fps). There is a whole lot more (and more important) elements to effectiveness than muzzle velocity.
and
I'm not sure we're not just a little contradictory here in a certain sense because shot placement and the ability deliver quick accurate shots are a major component of effectiveness.
As far as "most effective in terminal ballistics" go, I have seen no credible research that would support your assumption that driving a 165-grain Gold Dot a 100 fps faster would significantly increase (or decrease) the effectiveness of the bullet--so, while you can "handle the recoil," that's all you are gaining, just more recoil not more effectiveness (and maybe, just maybe, with a good medium velocity load you could get that second or third shot just a tad faster and a tad more accurately--and that, friend, could increase the effectiveness a whole lot more than 100 fps). There is a whole lot more (and more important) elements to effectiveness than muzzle velocity.
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Drifting Fate
Member
Oh, I'm going to kick myself for continuing this, but here goes:
I don't disagree that shot placement is the most critical thing. I've repeated that in other posts to the point I sound like a broken record. And, dwell time between shots is very important, hence my preference for short trigger resets and a low bore axis.
I am really of the school of pick a reliable hollow point, and learn to shoot it.
However, in this case, we are talking about raw tissue damage from a specific given round compared to another. And, in handgun terms, 100fps is huge.
Going back to the reliability issue, the round not only has to feed, detonate, extract, and eject every time, but it has to generate enough recoil impulse to properly cycle the gun each time. Now, we all know that the .40 smacks a slide back and forth with great authority, but I've seen, talked to trainers, and read credible reports about some people having problems with "limp wristing" with the downloaded (that is how it gets to be medium velocity) rounds.
It's the same thing as with the 147grn 9mm. Now, standing on the range punching paper, I know that they work fine. And, if you are a well trained shooter with a strong grip, I am sure they would work just fine as well. However, worst case scenerio, a proper firing grip wasn't taken, arm and wrist are bent, and a desperation shot is taken, "limp wristing" happens. The proliferation of plastic frames which do flex a bit under recoil makes it more likely (not slamming them, it's just part of the physics.) I've seen it happen in training with alarming frequency. Ironically, it most often happens with the same people who complain about too much recoil.
Now, before I get flamed on this, yes - it is shooter error. But, it's also real life.
It can happen with full power rounds, but they do give a significant amount of extra push to the slide for full speed functioning.
So, if you are comfortable with all functioning aspects, and you feel it gives you a significant advantage in follow-up times, by all means use it. Ballistics is a voodoo science, anyways. Shot placement is certainly the key to true stopping power. But, 100fps does make a difference, and it won't do as much damage to the surrouding tissue. Yes, that being said, I don't want to be shot with anything.
Oh, yeah, one more thing - "PC" and "polite" have nothing to do with each other. I fully support accuracy in language, but we don't have to be PC to be nice to each other.
I don't disagree that shot placement is the most critical thing. I've repeated that in other posts to the point I sound like a broken record. And, dwell time between shots is very important, hence my preference for short trigger resets and a low bore axis.
I am really of the school of pick a reliable hollow point, and learn to shoot it.
However, in this case, we are talking about raw tissue damage from a specific given round compared to another. And, in handgun terms, 100fps is huge.
Going back to the reliability issue, the round not only has to feed, detonate, extract, and eject every time, but it has to generate enough recoil impulse to properly cycle the gun each time. Now, we all know that the .40 smacks a slide back and forth with great authority, but I've seen, talked to trainers, and read credible reports about some people having problems with "limp wristing" with the downloaded (that is how it gets to be medium velocity) rounds.
It's the same thing as with the 147grn 9mm. Now, standing on the range punching paper, I know that they work fine. And, if you are a well trained shooter with a strong grip, I am sure they would work just fine as well. However, worst case scenerio, a proper firing grip wasn't taken, arm and wrist are bent, and a desperation shot is taken, "limp wristing" happens. The proliferation of plastic frames which do flex a bit under recoil makes it more likely (not slamming them, it's just part of the physics.) I've seen it happen in training with alarming frequency. Ironically, it most often happens with the same people who complain about too much recoil.
Now, before I get flamed on this, yes - it is shooter error. But, it's also real life.
It can happen with full power rounds, but they do give a significant amount of extra push to the slide for full speed functioning.
So, if you are comfortable with all functioning aspects, and you feel it gives you a significant advantage in follow-up times, by all means use it. Ballistics is a voodoo science, anyways. Shot placement is certainly the key to true stopping power. But, 100fps does make a difference, and it won't do as much damage to the surrouding tissue. Yes, that being said, I don't want to be shot with anything.
Oh, yeah, one more thing - "PC" and "polite" have nothing to do with each other. I fully support accuracy in language, but we don't have to be PC to be nice to each other.
denfoote
Member
Dean, that must be why the 165gr .40S&W does so well out of the conversion barrel for my G29!!! The 180gr has not cut it in any of the brands I have tried!!
Thanx!!
The 180gr has not cut it in any of the brands I have tried!!Thanx!!
Island Beretta
Member
The FBI still carries the 9mm with the Speer GoldDot being the preferred choice. The .40 is the predominant caliber now however.
I think the 9mm and .38spl have accounted for a significant number of fatalities worldwide for anybody to question its usefulness in a gunfight. I know someone who took 4 .45 ACP shots to the head, point blank and survived. Does that mean the .45 ACP is no good? Certainly not, so what is the point about someone getting 1 shot in the torso with a 9mm round and not dying???
Correct me if I am wrong but does not the Mini-14 uses .223REM rounds, the same as the M-16/AR-15. If that is the case, somehow I do not think a pistol was the right tool for the job, unless of course you were cornered and had no choice!!
I think the 9mm and .38spl have accounted for a significant number of fatalities worldwide for anybody to question its usefulness in a gunfight. I know someone who took 4 .45 ACP shots to the head, point blank and survived. Does that mean the .45 ACP is no good? Certainly not, so what is the point about someone getting 1 shot in the torso with a 9mm round and not dying???
Correct me if I am wrong but does not the Mini-14 uses .223REM rounds, the same as the M-16/AR-15. If that is the case, somehow I do not think a pistol was the right tool for the job, unless of course you were cornered and had no choice!!
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