FBI Miami Shootout Riddle.

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cowssurf

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Here's a riddle for you. The 9mm was dumped on by the FBI after it's failure in the Miami Shootout. It was criticized because a 9mm round stopped short of the heart of the bad guy. So the FBI came up with the 10mm. The 10mm proved to be too much for the average agent to handle effectively. The 10mm got shortened to the .40. Now with the .40 people feel we have reached the promised land. The .40 has the superior stopping power without the heavy recoil of the 10mm. Although holding less than a 9mm, guns chambered for the .40 still hold a respectable 12 to 13 rounds. The .40 is not as prone to overpenetrating like the 9mm is. The .40 makes a larger--wait a minute. What was that last line? The .40 is not as prone to overpenetrating like the 9mm is? But the .40 came about because the 9mm didn't penetrate enough. What gives? And that, to me, is the FBI Miami Shootout Riddle. Can anyone explain how we got a round that doesn't penetrate as much as one that didn't penetrate enough, and we consider this new round an improvement?
 
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It's the riddle of gobment logic. The shootout has been studied in great detail, and the bulk of the killing and injuring was done with one suspect's Mini-14. There is no suggestion that having .40's or even 10mm's would have ended it any sooner. The feds simply got in over their heads against shooters with long guns. The agents had a difficult time getting good hits on the suspects, while the suspect with the Mini-14 had little trouble getting good hits on them. The more recent Kyle Dinkheller murder showed us on videotape how this can happen. He even got a nice shot into the suspect, but was hit by the carbine fire and killed. No handgun, however well wielded, is going to cut it against someone armed with a long gun unless luck is working overtime.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Logic would dictate that the FBI start bringing long guns to long gun fights.
 
There may not be any contradiction there.

Can anyone explain how we got a round that doesn't penetrate as much as one that didn't penetrate enough, and we consider this new round an improvement?
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You've changed terms. They didn't say the 40 penetrated less than a 9mm, they said it overpenetrated less. If the expanded 40 penetrates further than the expanded 9mm, and the unexpanded 9mm is prone to overpenetrate, and the 40 is less prone to fail to expand, it is entirely possible to have a round that may be said to penetrate more, but overpenetrate less.
I don't have the data for the 40 & the 9 to conclude this is what they are saying, but it isn't immediately obvious to me that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth.
 
Had to blame someone or something for a major fiasco!

The FBI chose to officially blame the guns instead of the agents.

Went hunting dangerous, heavily armed men. Didn't bother to arm themselves for the task. I bet the agents had plenty of breath mints along though.

I got to study the 'Miami shootout' for a couple days at a recertifacation class. Basicaly the agents involved just expected the bad guy's to just drop their guns and put up their hands when confronted by a number of FBI! They had no expectation of a major firefight!
 
The agents had a difficult time getting good hits on the suspects, while the suspect with the Mini-14 had little trouble getting good hits on them
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The two suspects took 6 and 12 rounds, including head and chest shots, and still they shot back.

That sounds like a failure on the part of the round itself at that point.
 
There are some "great arguments" from the past using the Search feature, here & on Firing Line....It became too personal by many of the posters & was shut down, IIRC....:) M. Ayoob even joined in the fray....
 
Er... if the FBI had 10mm pistols (with QUALITY loaded 10mm rounds... not watered down garbage we mostly see today), then the fight would've ended much quicker. The 10mm would've fully penetrated them, and they'd be dead much quicker.

The current 10mm has a drastic, superior difference in penetration and expansion power compared to the current 9mm; there's no denying this.

Shot from a Glock 20 and/or 29, the 10mm handles very well... even in rapid fire drills.

The FBI (along with the military and police accross the nation) should seriously reconsider using the current 10mm from DoubleTap, and in the Glock 20 and 29 platform. :eek:
 
You obviously haven't tried to teach an average new cop or solder how to shoot a pistol!
I have.

Your average trainee cop or solder would fire one Double-Tap 10mm, drop the gun on the ground, and run off screaming!

Generally, a 1911 kicked too hard for most folks to ever get proficient with it, in the limited amount of training time available, and a 10mm kicks as hard and is twice as loud!

rcmodel
 
never bring a knife to a gunfight.
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Well, never bring a knife to a handgun fight.

Never bring a handgun to a shotgun fight.

Never bring a shotgun to a rifle fight.

It's the natural order of things. If any reasonably competent shooter has a rifle, the only thing you're going to combat him effectively with is another rifle, unless you have the option of calling in air support.

Your average trainee cop or solder would fire one Double-Tap 10mm, drop the gun on the ground, and run off screaming!
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Funny, I taught a 16 year old girl how to shoot on my G20 and she did just fine with Double Tap 180 gr Match. No running and screaming, just a big goofy grin at slide lock...
 
From what I've read - and I'm not a LEO trainer (or any other trainer) - the 9mm 115gr Silvertip performed quite well, but luck wasn't on the FBI's side. And handguns aren't rifles. I think the round was blamed for little reason. I've looked at lots and lots of penetration/expansion tests on the various common calibers and there are hardly even meaningful differences between 9mm and .40; usually .40 expands to about .05" bigger, but penetrates about exactly the same. .357 Mag may do a little better, so maybe the FBI should have gone old school and had agents carrying revolvers again?
 
From the data I've seen, there is no measurable difference in either expanded diameter or penetration between 9mm and .40. This is with grains 124(+P) and 165, respectively. If you go up to 147gr in 9mm or 180 in .40 you apparently get deeper penetration but less expansion.
 
There were so many mistakes made by the FBI agents during the Miami incident that trying to analyze any one part of it is meaningless. The entire thing was FUBAR'd from the start. Centerfire long guns vs handguns is always going to be a mismatch regardless of the caliber of the handguns.
 
The two suspects took 6 and 12 rounds, including head and chest shots, and still they shot back.

That sounds like a failure on the part of the round itself at that point.
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If that's the case, 12 gauge buckshot failed, because Mireles shot both suspects with his shotgun as well.

Did the FBI try to develop a more powerful shotgun round?
 
That sounds like a failure on the part of the round itself at that point.
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Platt, the guy with the Mini-14, was hit in the chest during the opening seconds of the fight with a 9mm round fired by Agent Dove. It was a fatal wound. The Chief Medical Examiner stated that had they started operating on Platt at that instant, he doubts Platt would have survived the wound. The wound did not hinder Platt in the least. All of the damage he inflicted with his Mini-14 occured after becoming a walking dead man.

It wasn't the round. It was shot placement. None of the shots were immediately incapacitating.
 
These guys were wearing body armor, correct?

Most pistol rounds generally suck against body armor, correct?

So it doesn't make a difference on what pistol round was used. Maybe a very hot loaded 135 grain 10mm could have penetrated, but in that situation they should have packed rifles.
 
seems to me- -and I'm very much armchair quarterbacking here-- but seems they shoud have gone in "heavy" on these guys- ie: call in the HRT guys and overwhelm them with a couple dozen rifles in their faces right off the bat.

Nevermind the 3 or 4 agents should have had rifles. The 3 or 4 agents shoulda had about a dozen more guys with them-- WITH rifles....

piss poor tactics will foul up any well-equipped operation. All tjhe more so when the operation isn't well equipped
 
Nope...no body armour. Just a strong will to fight after being shot.

And, the Silvertip DID perform as it was intended to do. But, going through an arm before encountering the torso made is come up a little short in the penetration dept.

Since then, (when they were using bullets designed to do well in the RII {relative incapacitation index}) much has been learned about pistol ammo. They didn't really need a new caliber...they needed a new bullet. We have lots of them now.
 
MTMilitiaman
Funny, I taught a 16 year old girl how to shoot on my G20 and she did just fine with Double Tap 180 gr Match. No running and screaming, just a big goofy grin at slide lock...
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Likewise.
I took my future wife to the range Saturday for her very first try with a pistol.
She handle my G21 without issue and displayed the same big goofy grin :)
 
Those men gave their lives to keep a shootout from happening in a more bystander-filled location.
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That was their story, anyway. IMHO, the wanted the glory for the FBI rather than calling in Miami/Dade police and SWAT to make the arrest. Ego trumps common sense every time.
 
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