FBI "tripwire" program Targets Gun/Ammo buyers

[Jumping Frog]

From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090613/ap_on_go_ot/us_lone_wolf_terrorists

When investigating a terrorist network, FBI agents can often access e-mails, phone records and documents to build a case. In some cases, they can develop informants to penetrate the group and provide intelligence.

But a killer acting alone rarely tells anyone what he's planning, let alone when or how. That makes it hard for authorities to determine who is prepared to commit a criminal act in furtherance of a perceived cause.

Trying to counter that threat, the FBI has created what it calls "tripwires." These are programs that seek tips from businesses whenever someone buys significant amounts of materials that can be used to make explosives, or large amounts of weapons or ammunition.

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama. The man, who relatives said suffers from mental illness, triggered a criminal investigation and he was eventually arrested.

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

 

[yokel]

A bit unsettling, to say the least.

The Bureaucrat Elite love guns, and they own plenty of them. Unfortunately, they don't want anybody else to share the same benefits. Bureaucrats love telling everyone what to do and they have enormous influence. Bureaucrats desire control. Control = No Guns

FBI Reichsführer Müeller should be a kind of horrific preview of the kind of people we will all become if we continue to let our government treat us as though we were incapable of moral self-control.

 

[everallm]

And this is different from the ATF requirement to an FFL to notify them of bulk purchases of firearm how....?

If some crackpot muppet is buying bulk lots of hexamine, nitric acid, oleaic suphuric acid, nitromethane or Phosporus Pentasulphide (to name but 5 fun ingredients) I want someone to ask the question "Why....?"

 

[ants]

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

Oh, Puhleeez.

Crackpots like von Brunn don't even know a 'tripwire' exists. He used the rifle he could get.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

And this is different from the ATF requirement to an FFL to notify them of bulk purchases of firearm how....?

Is this illegal or something? ...To buy firearms "in bulk"?

If some crackpot muppet is buying bulk lots of hexamine, nitric acid, oleaic suphuric acid, nitromethane or Phosporus Pentasulphide (to name but 5 fun ingredients) I want someone to ask the question "Why....?"

Is this illegal as well? ...To buy these chemicals? Until whoever buys these or any other chemicals does something illegal with them, it's nobody's business but his.

It is my intention to buy about 10 Ruger LCPs as soon as I get the money together. The FBI and ATF will surely know about it when I do. What I do with them is none of their business unless I do something illegal with them. It's none of their business what I do with any of the MORE than 10 guns I already own unless I do something illegal with them.

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

Here it is, folks. The groundwork has been laid to lose the exception of all the old and black powder guns from needing background checks for purchase. They'll want to close the tripwire loophole now that there has been an incident that fell through that loophole.

I wonder who'll be the first to come to the plate with this...Will it be Schumer? Feinstein? The Brady Bunch? The ATF? Obama himself?

Woody

 

[daorhgih]

This seems to be the only post site still open,

so here goes:
You don't have to be guilty to be convicted, anymore. 2d Amendment Foes Tighten Their Nooses. So Be forewarned, Gun-owner;
and do not kid ourselves, gentlemen. THEY WANT ALL OF OUR GUNS.
One small millimeter at a time "they" will demonize the gun, marginalize the gun-owner, and make their move "to make the nation safer for all Americans" by removing the threats ( that's "Us".) The real threat to "them" is the 2d amendment, NOT the gun it defends. The secondary threat to "them" is anyone who defends that amendment ( that's "Us") and owns a gun.
Whether it be the "Automatic" (a demonizing word) that was used to assassinate a doctor, or the pre-ban, unregulated auto-loader (another set of demon words) .22 cal. long-gun that assassinated the guard in D.C., "they" want them all, and "they" want us. Us; they want you, and me. Wise up. What are you prepared to do? At 0300 the knock on your door will not be a neighbor asking for a cup of flour.
When the hue-and-cry is "No guns for white supremacists", where will you be? Marginalized? When the hue-and-cry for "No guns for abortion opposers" heralds a new confiscation scheme, where will you stand? Marginalized a little bit more. It does not matter about how you really feel about those two particular causes, because the REAL, ROOT cause is "CONFISCATION": by any means.
The next major causal event will likely be closer to the bone in D.C. And very high up. Don't say you were not forewarned. "They" will choreograph any scenario in order to demonize the gun further. The handwriting has been on the wall for a long time. Did you read it? It's never been LESS about Bambi.

 

[taprackbang]

they (the FBI) can develop informants to penetrate the group and provide intelligence.

I happen to know one of these so-called informants. He spilled the beans to me and he knew what he was talking about. (I corroborated names.) He was just a 'little' too proud of himself; he bragged constantly about his 'moleness.'

What a dufous this guy was.

 

[Neverwinter]

Is this illegal or something? ...To buy firearms "in bulk"?

Obviously not, or people would have been arrested for it. Have there been any incidents of people being arrested for buying bulk firearms or ammo?


How is this any different from the $10,000 reporting requirement for bank transfers?

 

[damien]

Places like ammoman.com sell most of their ammo in 1000 round quantities. For them to report to this "tripwire" they would have to report almost every purchase. Anyone think they do that? I don't.

 

[TheFallGuy]

how much ammo is considered to be a large purchase? I buy up what I can get, 100-300 rounds at a time these days. But so do a lot of gun owners. I have bought 2000 rounds in one transaction before (this past January at a gun show) with raising eyebrows.

Are we talking about 10,000 rounds? 50,000?

I guess I don't see it as a big deal. Now if it is 100 rounds that is a different story. I have nothing to hide and I invite any government agent to look around all they want. I am not a criminal. I am not a terrorist. I am not a right wing extremist. I have been accused of all of those things by people that just don't understand me or my ways...

 

[SHvar]

You know years ago when I purchased my last car I paid in full with a check of over 20,000, it was reported to the FBI. When I put my downpayment on the house I bought, it was reported (over 30,000), and when I got the lone for the rest I had to sign an agreement that I wasnt supporting terrorism in any way and the FBI was notified of my financial activities.
Its almost a shame that you cant do so many normal things without the FBI being told about it.
Now its time to slowly reverse the rules, and intrusions that we now are limited by, and placed there by those who say they are keeping us safer (but they are keeping themselves safer only).

 

[george29]

Old hat stuff. FBI has always had certain tripwires in place, today, they are mainly on the computer. Google "How to build a suitcase nuke" and you just tripped a wire, I just might have tripped one right now, who knows, I personally don't care because I have nothing to hide and I'm not building or planning on building a nuke. There are old trip wires in libraries, gun shops, explosive outlets and probably a hundred other areas that I wouldn't have even thought of. I don't see how one can equate FBI tripwire with losing our rights. Maybe it's late, I'm mellow from a few beers and currently harbor no ill will on anyone. Maybe tomorrow I will be an AWM (angry white man) and write something different.

 

[daorhgih]

Tripwires are un-necessary

I searched for "tripwire" in the search column of this site and was given 2,278 citations in less than 0.007 seconds. HSA can do much better with their $12,000,000 computer nets. Computers are wunnnerful. Every conversation on THR or TFL, or ALL other sim. sites is continually monitored for buzz-words. I need not tell you what they are, but two of them are "assassinate", and "Obama/Biden." Guess why. HSA is always watching you. Ft. Mead and Indianapolis are the two headquarters for east of the Miss. Keep your nose clean. And buy bulk. Believe in yourself and never trust a lifer.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

In Washington, the white supremacist Von Brunn apparently skirted such tripwires by using a vintage rifle from the early 20th century. With that single, small-caliber gun, a museum security guard was killed before other guards opened fire and disabled von Brunn.

Oh, Puhleeez.

Crackpots like von Brunn don't even know a 'tripwire' exists. He used the rifle he could get.

Right. This has NOTHING to do with von Brunn. He was a felon who had not had his rights restored. His purchase wasn't going to show up on any government computer in any form or fashion because he didn't make a legal purchase. He didn't need to buy tremendous amounts of ammo for the task either.

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama. The man, who relatives said suffers from mental illness, triggered a criminal investigation and he was eventually arrested.

It didn't work here either. He wasn't hunted because he purchased in bulk. He was hunted because he blabbed his intentions to a bank teller who reported the incident.

 

[sernv99]

You know years ago when I purchased my last car I paid in full with a check of over 20,000, it was reported to the FBI. When I put my downpayment on the house I bought, it was reported (over 30,000), and when I got the lone for the rest I had to sign an agreement that I wasnt supporting terrorism in any way and the FBI was notified of my financial activities.

IRS gets notified about big money transactions to catch folks money laundering and tax cheats. Where you get this idea that the FBI gets this info from the get-go is beyond me.

I happen to know one of these so-called informants. He spilled the beans to me and he knew what he was talking about. (I corroborated names that he dropped.) He was just a 'little' too proud of himself; he bragged constantly about his 'moleness.'

What a dufous this guy was.

let me guess, some informant also told you where Jimmy Hoffa's body is located too, huh?

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

yokel and daorhgih right much nail it on the head.

 

[runrabbitrun]

yokel and daorhgih right much nail it on the head.

I concur.

 

[seanie!]

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama.

I think it probably had more to do with the fact that he told somebody that he was going to kill the president!

 

[SHvar]

How do I know that the FBI is informed, because its been done since 9/11, how do I know aside from that? The bank tells you ahead of time (at least they did), and you must sign a form notifying you of this. The IRS is but one organization that is informed of your financial activities, sometime they have to notify others about them when certain amounts are exceeded.
Trust me I know its done.

 

[chuckusaret]

I speak with the voice of experience. I did a large group buy of ammo for my shooting buddies and received a call from the ATF. Was thanked for my time and understanding

 

[christcorp]

People tend to mix up "Illegal" with "Unusual". It doesn't matter if something is ILLEGAL to buy or LEGAL to buy. If you aren't a farmer/rancher, and you you buy a large stock of fertilizer; it may be LEGAL, but it's also UNUSUAL. With today's panic buying of guns and ammo, that puts a different wrench in the works. In the past, if you weren't an FFL dealer, and you bought a lot of guns or ammunition at one time, that could definitely be seen as unusual. But now, buying a case of 1000 rounds is NOT unusual in the least. So the "Tripwires" have to be changed and reassessed.

 

[McKnife]

I met an FFL in central Texas... went to talk to him about doing some potential transfers.

He got to runnin' his mouth with old War stories and such, and then proceeds to tell me that weeks earlier, some fella asked him to order 100 .50 BMG Incendiary Armor Piercing rounds because he didn't know where to get any. He quoted the price and made the deal, and even took payment.

The FFL thought it was strange that the gentleman ordered that particular cartridge and in such "high quantity" -- so he called his ATF contact and reported him as a possible domestic terrorist. -- They did an investigation and even visited the gentleman at his home.

I asked if he was charged with anything and I immediately left after he said that the gentleman "was clean... false alarm."

Be careful... there are taddle-tales around EVERY CORNER!

 

[ilbob]

It matters little whether you are legal or not. If you do something some .gov entity thinks is suspicious or they don't approve of, you will get extra scrutiny. Especially if you are a law abiding taxpaying citizen.

Sometimes it is legit. Most times it is just an exercise to remind us who the boss is.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Such precautions seem to have worked in the case of a man who cleaned out his savings account in Utah and told the bank teller he was on a mission to kill President Barack Obama.

And they needed a tripwire to know this guy was a dangerous nut?

 

[benEzra]

IRS gets notified about big money transactions to catch folks money laundering and tax cheats. Where you get this idea that the FBI gets this info from the get-go is beyond me.

The Patriot Act greatly expanded bank-transaction reporting requirements in the name of "catchin' terrorists". The IRS is not the primary recipient of most of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act,_Title_III