FBI wanted 10mm 180gr. @ 980fps only??

[ihatecars]

Hello everyone, I was reading up on some ballistic information in attempt to convince myself out of buying a midsize 357sig gun when I already have a 40SW (sub)compact gun. No I can't swap the barrel, they don't make it. Since I have a 40, I paid close attention to its performance particularly the ones mentioning/mentioned by FBI because that's what made me want more power (10mm) in the first place. And while doing it, I found this.
(Google "FBI 10mm notes" for source)

KEEP IN MIND - these are old. As in, they didn't have Gold Dots back then

9mm - the Federal 147 grain HydraShok
.45 - the Federal 230 grain HydraShok
10mm - the FBI load, a 180 grain Sierra bullet at 980 feet per second
.380 - there isn't one. The full metal jacketed round is the best of a bad choice, but only because it might penetrate.
.357 - we haven't found one that is sufficiently better than the best .38 load to justify all the sound and fury of shooting it, unless you need the increased effective range, which the higher velocity gives you. We have only tested five so far, and none of them stands out.
.38 Special - the Federal 147 grain HydraShok

Now, please refrain from passive-aggressively ing the calibers that you don't own, as we don't need another battle of the calibers, but the bold part got me very interested, also crushed my attempt in justifying owning a 357sig (which is weaker than full power 357 mag to begin with). Yes I've said I'm trying to talk myself out, but I think we all can agree, it's a two way road......

But anyway if you just spend a minute or two shopping for 40SW ammo, FMJ for plinking or JHP for defense, they all push 180gr bullet over 1000fps.
At least Speer does, (sorry I am a little fanboy) http://youtu.be/39NDONv3MQY?t=1m40s
It makes all sense because 10mm was too big for most agents to use at full power anyway, they decided to bring the dimensions down to get rid of unnecessary space.

But I'm nervous to ask, can I say "Modern 40SW ammo performs comparably to the 10mm FBI in the 80's, if not better." ??
Thanks for reading.

 

[Ron James]

Well yes??, BTW the .357 Sig is nothing more than a fast 9MM.

 

[ihatecars]

Except there's no 9mm gun that can safely spit out 1400fps all day.

I guess I'm just surprised(?) to find out that FBI "developed" a 10mm for ONLY 980fps because I used to look at my compact gun and say "Heh it's a 10mm Short and Weak" but now it looks like a lean version of 10mm with less physical bulk. (Talking about 180gr @ 980fps here, not full power 10mm)

 

[Robert101]

Yep no surprise at all. Long before the 10MM was the 41 Mag Lead Police load. Same principle.

 

[BCRider]

I'm guessing that the 980fps load was the reduced one to make it more palatable for their less then capable shooters. So it would be the load performance that was then transferred into the .40S&W? This would appear to be the case because when I look at the loading data for 180gn bullets in .40S&W I see that the velocities are all hovering around 1000fps. And for 10mm with the same bullet we're up in the 1100fps to 1200fps range. And given how folks say that the 10mm has been neutered in recent loading data I'm guessing that back in the day a PROPER 10mm round would have been closer to 1300ish fps? If so that's a meaningful difference.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BCRider: I'm guessing that the 980fps load was the reduced one to make it more palatable for their less then capable shooters.[/QUOTEMore likely, to make it more effective.

With less recoil, any shooter can shoot more rapidly with better control. And unless one needs to shoot through metal or plate glass--or, of course, to shoot medium to large game--the additional penetration would not provide any real benefit.

Look back a few decades. The FBI acquired a number of .357 Registered Magnum revolvers. But they were not routinely used. They were brought out for special engagements whee the additional penetration was needed.

 

[golden]

THEY WANTED A .45ACP 185 grain hollowpoint

The way the events unfolded was the FBI was shocked and embarrassed by a terrible gun fight popularly known as the MIAMI MASSACRE. It was the worst gun fight since the old gangster days of the depression. Two agents killed and 3 wounded and maimed. Also, one agent never even fired a shot and another lost his main carry gun because of poor training (they both took out their guns and rested them on the car seat). The second agent fought the gun fight using his back up gun.

The FBI placed the blame on the failure on a 9m.m. WINCHESTER Silvertip and became obsessed with getting a deep penetrating round.

They came up with a series of tests to determine penetration including shooting through windshields and heavy clothing.

They concluded that the most effective ammo from a recoil vs penetration and stopping power viewpoint was the 185 grain hollowpoint .45ACP round.

At this point they decided to go with a 10 m.m. round using the same ballistics. Since they had already determined that the 185 grain .45ACP round was the best round, the choice of the 10 m.m. was probably more political and brand naming than practical.
They 10 m.m. was already in production, but many of the loads were close to the .41 magnum revolver round and I mean the jacketed hollow point hunting rounds, not the lead wadcutter police round.
A 170 grain hollow point at 1200 fps was one of the loads that NORMA made for the 10 m.m.

The 180 grain was light enough in recoil from a 2 pound plus semi automatic pistol to allow qualification by agents used to the .38 Special +P.

The gun, made by S&W was a disaster and the FBI dropped them. By then the FBI had approved the 147 grain load and later on went to the .40 S&W when it became available.

Some of those quotes were just ridiculous. The .357 magnum had become THE TOP POLICE MANSTOPPER with many Federal, State and Local law enforcement agencies proving it in gunfight after gunfight.
The negative was that noise, flash, recoil and the fact that it was a revolver round at a time period when the semi automatic pistol was quickly displacing the revolver as the standard police sidearm.

My own agency used the .357 magnum and had no complaints at all about stopping power. We used the 110 grain jhp for people who worked primary indoors and the hotter 125 grain jhp for agents working in the field.

NOTE THE 147 GRAIN LOAD: This really odd tale took on a life of its own. Their were reports of the 147 grain WINCHESTER OTM Match ammo having a record of 10 one shot stops by military special forces (usually credited to the Navy SEALS). What everybody missed was that many of the shots were HEAD SHOTS. The bullet used was a hollow point, but only to improve its accuracy, not to expand as the military is barred by treaty from using expanding ammo.
The 147 HYDRA SHOK loads had a good reputation on the street for this bullet weight, but that was more because the HYDRA SHOK is such a good round in this velocity range.
Also, at this point, the gun business was suddenly taken by the SUB-SONIC trend. Most of the ammo makers brought out a SUB-SONIC load. Law enforcement agencies gradually gave up on the SUB-SONIC craze and went to faster ammo in the 9m.m. and .40 S&W.
My agency had allowed private purchase 9m.m. pistols to officers, but issued only 9m.m. +P+ ammo for carry. First the WINCHESTER 115 grain jhp +P+, then the 124 grain HYDRA SHOK +P+ rounds.
All that came to an end with the adoption of the .40 S&W 155 grain jhp which in our testing was found to be as effective as the .357 magnum, but with double the number of round in the gun.
The downside was that this round wore out our BERETTA 96 Brigadiers in about 10 years of service. Power has a price.

The next big round development was the .357 SIG. An attempt to get the 125 jhp .357 magnum round performance in an auto. The 10m.m. 180 jhp was supposed to do this and never did. If it had, their would not have been much reason to develop the high velocity .40 S&W loads (155 and 165 grain)which have more recoil than the slower 180 grain and no need at all for a high pressure, loud round like the .357 SIG.

For many years, the 230 grain .45ACP HYDRA SHOK was widely considered the pistol round with the best stopping power, but it had a heavier recoil than the lighter 185 grain rounds.

I have still not seen any convincing evidence that the 10 m.m. 180 grain jhp round is more effective than the .45ACP 185 grain jhp or the 9m.m. +P+. , much less the .45ACP 230 grain HYDRA SHOK or .357 magnum 125 grain jhp or the equivalent .357 SIG load.


If you can point to some "UNBIASED" evidence, let me know.

Jim

 

[ihatecars]

^ Why are you bringing in caliber war,, your point? We all know (or can easily access) the history and the whole start of "we need a stronger cartridge" was kind of stupid. Thanks for the reminder I guess.
tl;dr but you and my quote actually AGREES that 357 is good. I don't know why you're emphasizing your agency had no complaints with 357 mag. Because neither did FBI. They just concluded it's too good at the cost of bang and flash.
You seem like a informative neutral guy. I just wish you were focused on my question ._. but it's a free country hey.
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I think the whole point of I (and the document) am trying to say is that FBI wanted 180gr to fly @ 980? and that's the loading they once decided to go with? If so, hey I can pack more punch in my modern 40SW.

Potential of full power 10mm Auto is irrelevant to my topic.

IMO, not being able to handle 1000J doesn't make any shooter is "less than capable" where one draws as fast as he can and put one or two in the attacker. Ex-spec ops guy carries 32ACP. Says that's all he needs or he'll be carrying a rifle.

 

[short barrel]

My agency went to the 10mm subsonic loads when the FBI did. It didn't work for us either. The guns FTF too much with the reduced loads.

So, we went to the 357Sig, which has exactly the same performance as a 9mm +P+.

I don't have any experience with the .40. Always heard they had to much pressure resulting in sharpness in recoil.

 

[jmr40]

The original 10mm load was much hotter. Not sure of the specs., but it proved too much for some agents. The load was reduced and S&W engineers discovered there was no need for the long 10mm case. thus the 40 S&W was born.

can I say "Modern 40SW ammo performs comparably to the 10mm FBI in the 80's, if not better." ??

Yes, you can.

I'm a 10mm fan, but for most users it is un-needed. The better 40, 9mm or 45 loads are perfectly suitable for most SD purposes. The niche of the 10mm is with those who want true magnum performance with 180-200 gr bullets that can be fired from a semi instead of a magnum revolver. The only time I actually carry my G-20 is if I'm hiking or camping in areas where black bear could be a concern.

I'm not a huge fan of the 357 Sig. It will come close to 357 mag performance with light bullets, but the best 9mm loads aren't that far behind 357 Sig. Not worth the negatives to me.

In a nutshell 9mm +P or 357 Sig will just about equal 357 mag with 125 gr bullets and when fired from 4" or shorter barrels.

40 S&W will just about equal 357 mag with heavier 158-180 gr bullets when fired from 4" or shorter barrels.

10mm will equal or slightly better 357 mag when fired from longer barrels with the heavier bullet weights.

 

[golden]

What caliber war?

CARS,

I am a bit curious of what you think was a caliber war. You started off this thread with a quote listing 6 different calibers and how they were ranked. The question seemed to me to be why was the 10m.m. listed as the best.

I tried to cover the history of the why the FBI said and did what it did when they started the development of the 10 m.m. MID RANGE LOAD. It was the FBI'S research that concluded the .45ACP 185 grain jhp was the optimum handgun load. It had less recoil than the 230 grain rounds like the HYDRA SHOK and was considered good enough.
Then they started off on the 10m.m. train, which did not make a lot of sense as the FBI agreed that the .45ACP 185 grain load performance was what they wanted.

The 10m.m. was adopted so that the FBI could show everybody that they were still the experts on gunfighting which the MIAMI gunfight had made questionable.

What does the 10m.m. round offer. A lot of power, yes but with the price of heavy recoil and a large gun. Also, GLOCK is the only major company to bring out a high capacity 10m.m. that I can think of. You can get .45ACP power, but you get it with .45ACP recoil and bulk. If you go to a higher level of power, you get even more recoil.

That was one of the early selling points of the .40 S&W. You could get an 11 or 12 or 13 round magazine in a lighter, smaller gun with the same performance of the 10m.m. MID RANGE loads. That effectively turned the 10m.m. into a niche round like the .41 magnum and made the .40 S&W, the standard for American law enforcement.

You should read some of the information on the gunfight. No one questioned the bravery or integrity of the agents, just the actions they engaged in.

As for my agency, well I know what went on there. They wanted a 12 shot .357 magnum. By the way, my agency did not issue a .357 and let you carry .38 ammo in it. You qualified with the .357 magnum ammo and you carried it in your gun.
At one point officers working indoors were carrying .357's with .38 ammo, but they dropped that and went to the 110 grain .357 ammo which has a recoil similar to the .38 Special +P without the heavy recoil, blast or flash of the more powerful 125 grain .357 load.

I cannot say the same for the FBI and it was known most of the agents involved in the MIAMI shootout were using .38 Special ammo.


Jim

 

[SDGlock23]

But I'm nervous to ask, can I say "Modern 40SW ammo performs comparably to the 10mm FBI in the 80's, if not better." ??
Thanks for reading

Of course, if anything it's better since now we have better bullets like the Gold Dot, Federal HST and Winchester Ranger T-series, etc.

I love the .40, there's really nothing it can't do that anyone would reasonably ask for from a small-ish handgun. I like that I can load 180's to 800 fps for a "gaming" load, load it up with quality factory JHP's doing ~1000 fps or load a 180gr XTP, Gold Dot, etc to 1200 fps if I want more pop, the .40 covers a LOT of ground.

 

[agtman]

I'm guessing that the 980fps load was the reduced one to make it more palatable for their less then capable shooters

Yes, ... sad but true.
Although former FBI FTU chief, John Hall, has stated that the "shooter-types" at the Bureau (typically, ex-mil & SWAT-types) liked the full-throttle 10mm loads then available (170gns/180gns @ 1200-1300fps), and could handle that level of felt-recoil, the majority of field agents weren't "shooters," and many came in with little or no previous experience with firearms. Think lawyers, accountants, forensic-science types (hair & fiber analysts), Mulders & Scullys, et. al. The late 80s were also a time when the FBI was heavily recruiting and "modifying" their training doctrines for females agents. Some of this was in response to discrimination claims & lawsuits. In other words, the FTU trainers took a hard look at the 10mm in its undiluted form, i.e, at real 10mm velocities, in light of the types of people who they'd have to get through their qualification course, annually or semi-annually, and chose to go with a downloaded version for that reason primarily.

So it would be the load performance that was then transferred into the .40S&W?

Yes. Since the powder charge needed to launch a 180gn 10mm/40cal bullet to the FBI's desired 980fps was less, the S&W ballistic people quickly observed that they could get there using a shorter 10mm case, which could then be housed inside a 9mm-sized gun. No surprise, but smaller, lighter guns will typically arouse less complaints from the agents who must carry them all day.

For a shorter predecessor cartridge to consider as a ballistic model, they looked back to the late 1970s and found it in the old .40G&A, which had been tested in a modified BHP using an experimental BarSto barrel. It's no coincidence that both the .40S&W and the 40G&A share almost identical COALs and both use small pistol primers. For comparison, the .45acp & 10mm have almost identical COALs, use LP primers, and require heavier, large-frame pistols in which to operate (e.g., Smith's 3rd Gen 45XX- and 10XX-series pistols or the Glock 21s & 20s).

This would appear to be the case because when I look at the loading data for 180gn bullets in .40S&W I see that the velocities are all hovering around 1000fps. And for 10mm with the same bullet we're up in the 1100fps to 1200fps range. And given how folks say that the 10mm has been neutered in recent loading data I'm guessing that back in the day a PROPER 10mm round would have been closer to 1300ish fps? If so that's a meaningful difference.

Bingo again. But full-power 10mm velocities vary with the bullet-weight used. For the 180gn bullet-weight, 1300fps would be considered full-throttle in 10mm dress; with 200gns, it's 1250fps (easily besting the old Norma standard due to modern powders & hybrid propellants not available in the '80s); 165gns @ 1425-1430fps (early DT load using Rem GS HPs that I chrono-ed), et. al.

 

[CDW4ME]

357 Sig vs 40 and then some

Glock 32:
Winchester Ranger T 125 gr. @ 1,340 fps / 499# KE / PF 168
Speer Gold Dot 125 gr. @ 1,344 fps / 501# KE / PF 168
Federal HST 125 gr. @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE / PF 170

Glock 23:
Federal Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 969 fps / 375# KE / PF 174
Remington Golden Saber 165 gr. @ 1,048 fps / 402# KE / PF 173
Winchester Ranger T 165 @ 1,146 fps / 481# KE / PF 189

-Comparing the hottest loads, 357 Sig HST vs 40 Ranger T 165: the 357 Sig delivers 6% more KE, while producing 10% less calculated recoil.
Recoil with the Ranger T 165 is noticeably more than the two other 40 S&W loads (no calculation required to determine that).

-Comparing the two middle loads, 357 Sig Gold Dot vs 40 Golden Saber 165: the 357 Sig delivers 20% more KE, and still has less calculated recoil.

That being said, the recoil difference between the milder 165 gr. and 180 gr. 40 and 357 Sig loads is negligible; the 357 Sig does have more blast.

The 357 Sig does approximate the ballistics of a traditional 125 gr. 357 JHP fired from a 4'' barrel revolver, data to support that:

Guntest Magazine March 2014:
Taurus Model 66: 357 Mag Gold Dot 125 gr. JHP @ 1,320 fps
Ruger GP 100: 357 Mag Gold Dot 125 gr. JHP @ 1,345 fps

CDW4ME Glock 32 Oct. 2014: Speer Gold Dot 125 gr. @ 1,344 fps

The 357 Sig appeals to those that think KE does matter (based on the reported success of the 357 Mag 125 gr. JHP) and are willing to pay for it; 357 Sig typically delivers 20% more / about 100# KE over 9mm +P

Yea, I've got data for that too
Glock 19:
Golden Saber 124 gr. +P @ 1,152 fps / 365# KE
Ranger T 124 gr. +P @ 1,212 fps / 405# KE

As to a 180 gr. bullet at ~ 950+ fps, that is easily attainable, even from a short barrel:
Kahr K40:
Federal Hydra-Shok 180 gr. @ 961 fps / 369# KE
Speer Gold Dot 180 gr. @ 991 fps / 393# KE
Federal HST 180 gr. @ 1,007 fps / 405# KE

 

[stompah]

I am going to have to buy a .40 Glock and do a back to back test with my Glock 29. I really dislike the sharp snap of the .40, which I don't get as much with my 10mm. I attribute it mostly to the extra mass of the slide. I am not a recoil sensitive person, but I do acknowledge how recoil can fatigue someone's wrists. I handload 10mm so I have made some full power rounds.

Were the agents refusing to excersize their wrists and forearms? What was the bigger factor to the FBI, fatigue from shooting or reacquiring the target?

I know 10mm handgun options were scarce back then. Did they not attempt to find a different firearm to shoot/develope?

I am surprised that the FBI didn't go for a lengthened 9mm round. To me it seems like stretching a case ala .357 mag is easier to develope since you arent inventing a round with a new bullet size or case head. Add a few MMs to the lengthen grip and ream the chamber just a bit deeper and you have more power.

I forgot to add. My G29 with slower 165gr bullets is a complete pleasure to shoot and I am still above .40 velocity with zero snappy recoil (just moderate push back). I wonder if FBI really was looking for a frame that small hands could grasp securely as opposed to recoil since the neutered 10 would provide the light recoil needed.

 

[bikerdoc]

Any calber/maker selection by any LE agency has more to do with politics than performance. Way back in the day my dept went from old 38's to 357 but the chief insisted we carry and practice with 38 rounds to use up the few cases we had on hand.

 

[mavracer]

all the information you need to know about the FBI's decision making on the 10mm is here.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

One note they never even tested or issued full power 10mm as it was considered from the outset to have too much blast and reciol.
Funny part is to get 10mm lite performance from the 40 you get most of the blast back.

 

[strambo]

I don't own any .40s and don't care for the recoil characteristics of them. That said, from a terminal performance standpoint it is an excellent round. I don't think it gives up a thing to the 357 Sig. It will make a hole the same depth and expand more. Ditto for a lighter 10mm load, not worth the larger gun size for a marginal increase.

 

[Harry1969]

The FBI doesn't know what it wants. All these years and all the money they've wasted developing the 10mm only to have S&W duplicate their final results with a smaller cartridge and they still can't make up their minds. They wanted the 10mm but it was too powerful so they went with the 40 S&W and now they want to go back to 9mm. So all that money was wasted experimenting and developing the 10mm. How many shootouts has the FBI been involved in lately anyway? Other than the Miami shootout I've never heard of FBI agents having to shoot it out with anyone although I'm sure it happens.

 

[ihatecars]

Oh wow I only just got notification I had "1" reply.. Thanks everyone I'll be reading for a while

 

[mavracer]

All these years and all the money they've wasted developing the 10mm only to have S&W duplicate their final results with a smaller cartridge and they still can't make up their minds. They wanted the 10mm but it was too powerful so they went with the 40 S&W and now they want to go back to 9mm. So all that money was wasted experimenting and developing the 10mm

The 10mm was developed 3 years befor the Miami shootout and I wouldn't call the FBIs ballistic research a waste without it we wouldn't have all the bonded jacket controlled expansion ammo.

 

[Harry1969]

I think bullet technology would have evolved anyway without taxpayers money.

 

[kBob]

Actually one of the Agents in the FBI Miami fight , in fact one that was permanently maimed and one of the ones who lost his handgun by having it stuck in the seat rather than jn his holster, blaimed the fact that you can own a Ruger Mini-14 for the slaughter. He testified before the Florida House criminal Justice committee during the first rounds of assault weapons bans for the bans.

Doesn't really mater what gun you are issued if it is not where you need it when you need it.

-kBob

 

[ihatecars]

Golden,

I included the quote to give everyone an idea of the timeframe/technology at the time when they considered 180gr @ 980fps sufficient. My question was not, "why 10mm is best". My question was, "If they were trying to only do 180gr@980fps, does it matter if it's fired from 10mm cartridge or 40sw?" I'm guessing the answer is no.
I was not trying to be offensive or arrogant at all, I apologize if my lack of language art skills made me come off that way.

CDW4ME

Thanks for all the numbers. But that raises a new question, although it might be slightly off topic, I'm applying "Same bullet, same weight, same speed, different brass" from 40SW & 10mm to 357SIG & 9mm & 357mag

I can see they were targeting 125gr @ 1350fps in development of 357SIG, but can it do more? How do they(357 SIG and mag) compare if both are loaded to full pressure? I use a gun, and plan to use if I buy another, with fully supported chamber (Sorry, no Glock) so I don't want extra safety margin of what CIP/SAAMI already decided is safely low enough pressure.

So the questions would be...
1. Speer GD 9mm+P JHP 124gr @ 1310fps vs Speer GD 357SIG JHP 125gr @ 1344fps........... Reminds me of "so the same 180gr @ 980fps?"
2. Maximum loading of 357 SIG vs mag.. are they comparable? or "There is a reason why it's called a magnum"??

 

[JTQ]

My question was, "If they were trying to only do 180gr@980fps, does it matter if it's fired from 10mm cartridge or 40sw?" I'm guessing the answer is no.

Big difference. The 10MM S&W 1006 that the FBI started out with is a large heavy gun. The S&W 4006 is much more compact and has a higher capacity. The length of the 10MM round necessitated a larger gun. With the .40S&W round you could put the round in a 9MM sized gun.