Feedback on GunBroker Purchase
- Thread starter Olympus
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Black Butte
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That gun is in not in "excellent" condition. Give the seller a chance to make it right with either a partial refund or a full return. Make it clear to him that he will be helping himself by keeping his feedback clean. If the seller refuses to be reasonable, then give future bidders a chance to steer clear of this cheat by giving him an "F" rating.
mdThanatos
Member
If he won't accept the gun back or make something better in your favor, negative it is.
0ly---l can barely see the damage in the GB pix on the top strap and site. l had to blow them up to 400% tho. Even then l had to HUNT for the dings. l will guess the site is original. lt looks as if the damage on the pistol came from being dropped on a rough surface, like a sidewalk or pavement. l believe the pix were purposely taken so as NOT to show damage
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Onward Allusion
Member
Gunbroker covers up to $500 with (I think) a $100 deductible. This particular case would appear to fall under the category of disputed condition - harder to claim.
For me, the two of times on GB where there was significant disparity between description and actual condition upon receipt was with individuals and not regular merchants. This would lead me to believe that individuals selling on GB are more likely to stretch the truth than merchants who are in the business of selling guns.
For me, the two of times on GB where there was significant disparity between description and actual condition upon receipt was with individuals and not regular merchants. This would lead me to believe that individuals selling on GB are more likely to stretch the truth than merchants who are in the business of selling guns.
mr.trooper
Member
I had a similar issue with a revolver on GB - description said "timing may be off a bit" ... By that apparently they meant that 4 of the 6 cylinders are wildly out of alignment. 
the sellers description said "excellent '. The pictures sure did not.
you fell in love with a dream and bought a pig in a poke "as is".
looks like you got caught up in a bidding war that you had to win.
a life lesson learned. Move on.
you fell in love with a dream and bought a pig in a poke "as is".
looks like you got caught up in a bidding war that you had to win.
a life lesson learned. Move on.
woad_yurt
Member
Since the listing said that payment must be by money order or certified check, I'm assuming that you mailed the money to the weasel. Let him know that you will make a mail fraud complaint to the Inspector General. They take mail fraud very, very seriously and definitely will pursue the matter. In this country, no other law enforcement agency comes close to the Postal Inspectors' arrest and conviction rate. $700+ is definitely enough money to get them interested.
Regarding the "as is," the seller said that the gun was in "excellent" condition. Don't think that "as is" means that you are automatically stuck with it. "As is" means nothing if the seller misrepresents an item, which this guy clearly did. "As is" only holds water if the buyer has had a chance to look over the item before buying it. All you had to go on was the seller's description, which was wildly inaccurate.
I had this happen to me once. After being blown off by the seller, I simply had my dealer send the gun back to the return address and informed my dealer to refuse any package from them if it they sent it back. I had to eat the return shipping costs but did get the purchase price back when I used the threat of a mail fraud complaint. If they have the gun back, they can't keep the money, too. Don't let them know it's on the way back, though, or they may refuse delivery. All in all, from beginning to end, it took me 3 months or so to get the money back.
Regarding the "as is," the seller said that the gun was in "excellent" condition. Don't think that "as is" means that you are automatically stuck with it. "As is" means nothing if the seller misrepresents an item, which this guy clearly did. "As is" only holds water if the buyer has had a chance to look over the item before buying it. All you had to go on was the seller's description, which was wildly inaccurate.
I had this happen to me once. After being blown off by the seller, I simply had my dealer send the gun back to the return address and informed my dealer to refuse any package from them if it they sent it back. I had to eat the return shipping costs but did get the purchase price back when I used the threat of a mail fraud complaint. If they have the gun back, they can't keep the money, too. Don't let them know it's on the way back, though, or they may refuse delivery. All in all, from beginning to end, it took me 3 months or so to get the money back.
ExMachina
Member
Sorry to hear how this is going. We all take risks when buying over the internet--especially when private sellers are concerned. Sometimes we get burned. Welcome to the club 
Speaking from limited experience, the mail fraud claim--while sounding threatening-- will yield you few results in the case of a private seller. At this point, small claims court would be the only avenue that might get you what you want (and even then, I'm not sure it's an open and shut case since the sell is right in that the dings ARE pictured. yeah, he's a slime ball but he's not without a legal defence)
My inclination (since it's not my money, right?) would be to let it go and chalk it up to experience. Next time, simply realize that if you don't want to accept the transfer, you don't have to.
I hate stories like this
Speaking from limited experience, the mail fraud claim--while sounding threatening-- will yield you few results in the case of a private seller. At this point, small claims court would be the only avenue that might get you what you want (and even then, I'm not sure it's an open and shut case since the sell is right in that the dings ARE pictured. yeah, he's a slime ball but he's not without a legal defence)
My inclination (since it's not my money, right?) would be to let it go and chalk it up to experience. Next time, simply realize that if you don't want to accept the transfer, you don't have to.
I hate stories like this
nofishbob
Member
This seller, due to his aggressive and semi-literate responses to your totally polite and reasonable inquiries, should be the poster boy for the kind of sellers that Gunbroker wants to eliminate.
Too many more like him and who would ever want to take a chance with an auction?
I sure hope that you can get some satisfaction, now that it is clear that the seller is dishonest and will not make things right.
Bob
Too many more like him and who would ever want to take a chance with an auction?
I sure hope that you can get some satisfaction, now that it is clear that the seller is dishonest and will not make things right.
Bob
CoRoMo
Member
I've been following your thread here without posting. I sort of feel for both parties, or at least initially I did. I figured that the seller was just a normal guy and didn't realize that using the word 'Excellent' bound the transaction to a standardized grading system. He thinks it is excellent, but it obviously doesn't meet the NRA Condition Grading. I can forgive him for that.
I've sold guns on GunBroker and have steered very clear of those grading terms because I didn't want to get into this very situation and get bad feedback. I've also bought guns that were described as having no issues whatsoever, just to find a little spec somewhere on them that I wish would have been recognized by the seller in the description. I give the other party as much benefit of the doubt as I hope they give me.
But... given his absolute lack of compassion to your requests, you are justified in giving him negative feedback. He's not doing a good job of selling his guns and people need a little heads-up before buying anything from him in the future. If he wants to get premium prices for his guns through GunBroker, he has to do better than this.
I've sold guns on GunBroker and have steered very clear of those grading terms because I didn't want to get into this very situation and get bad feedback. I've also bought guns that were described as having no issues whatsoever, just to find a little spec somewhere on them that I wish would have been recognized by the seller in the description. I give the other party as much benefit of the doubt as I hope they give me.
But... given his absolute lack of compassion to your requests, you are justified in giving him negative feedback. He's not doing a good job of selling his guns and people need a little heads-up before buying anything from him in the future. If he wants to get premium prices for his guns through GunBroker, he has to do better than this.
Hi Olympus,
Image No. 8 in the listing -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=209621755
Actually shows the 'low' area of the left Top-Strap, and the gouges in that area, fairly well.
But, it would be easy to miss it, especially if one were feeling enthusiasm.
I think the Seller should refund your Money, and, accept the Revolver being returned.
Trust in your own good fate - believe me, you will find another Revolver of the same Model, and, one which is 'right' and which will be a basis for good feelings and fun and real satisfaction and pride, without compromise.
Don't settle for less.
Edit - sorry, I just wrote the above from the bottom of page 1, and, did not notice there were two more pages to go.
Seller was dis-honest for not emphacising in dedicated images and in text, the defects of the Revolver in the listing, and, by showing them only slightly, in an incidental way, I believe he was pre-emptively strategising his position to refuse negotation after a sale, once the buyer sees the Revolver in real life, and notices the magnitude of the defects.
Very sorry this happened to you.
If it were me, and, if unable to find satiusfaction in attempting further actions with or against the Seller, I would do one of two things -
Throw it into a River, or give it away, and free my head of the clutter and frustration which it has brought.
Or...
Find a Gunsmith or Machinist who does 'Metal Spray', or, Tig Welding, and, have the Top Strap area built 'up', using as close an Alloy as possible to that of the Frame, or, if 'TIG', then an identical Alloy ( cut into slender 'sticks' from a scrap/condemned Frame of same composition) , and, getting this area re-profiled, where, done right, it could be actually undetectible there-after.
Image No. 8 in the listing -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=209621755
Actually shows the 'low' area of the left Top-Strap, and the gouges in that area, fairly well.
But, it would be easy to miss it, especially if one were feeling enthusiasm.
I think the Seller should refund your Money, and, accept the Revolver being returned.
Trust in your own good fate - believe me, you will find another Revolver of the same Model, and, one which is 'right' and which will be a basis for good feelings and fun and real satisfaction and pride, without compromise.
Don't settle for less.
Edit - sorry, I just wrote the above from the bottom of page 1, and, did not notice there were two more pages to go.
Seller was dis-honest for not emphacising in dedicated images and in text, the defects of the Revolver in the listing, and, by showing them only slightly, in an incidental way, I believe he was pre-emptively strategising his position to refuse negotation after a sale, once the buyer sees the Revolver in real life, and notices the magnitude of the defects.
Very sorry this happened to you.
If it were me, and, if unable to find satiusfaction in attempting further actions with or against the Seller, I would do one of two things -
Throw it into a River, or give it away, and free my head of the clutter and frustration which it has brought.
Or...
Find a Gunsmith or Machinist who does 'Metal Spray', or, Tig Welding, and, have the Top Strap area built 'up', using as close an Alloy as possible to that of the Frame, or, if 'TIG', then an identical Alloy ( cut into slender 'sticks' from a scrap/condemned Frame of same composition) , and, getting this area re-profiled, where, done right, it could be actually undetectible there-after.
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oneounceload
member
Most folks post pics with their item - did you not have any to see first or ask for more?
Second, most dealers are willing to give folks a 3-day non-firing inspection - did he not offer that?
Sounds like both parties "oopsed" somewhat here - it happened to me on a shotgun I bought - I checked everything, the gun was as described, except one descriptor - the LOP - wasn't mentioned and I forgot to ask, and when it came in, it was about an inch too short - and it already had a pad and spacer. It became the wife's gun until she decided she wanted something else.
The rule is Caveat Emptor - sorry to hear he won't do anything about it.
Second, most dealers are willing to give folks a 3-day non-firing inspection - did he not offer that?
Sounds like both parties "oopsed" somewhat here - it happened to me on a shotgun I bought - I checked everything, the gun was as described, except one descriptor - the LOP - wasn't mentioned and I forgot to ask, and when it came in, it was about an inch too short - and it already had a pad and spacer. It became the wife's gun until she decided she wanted something else.
The rule is Caveat Emptor - sorry to hear he won't do anything about it.
OP
OP
Olympus
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I appreciate all the support from everyone. I have emailed S&W with plenty of pictures and I'm waiting for a response to see if it is something that can be fixed or at least made to look less significant.
If I don't hear anything from Smith, I've had several members PM me with referrals to gunsmiths who may be able to make this better.
But you're right, I either need to get rid of this ugly reminder or have it fixed to where I don't notice it as much.
If I don't hear anything from Smith, I've had several members PM me with referrals to gunsmiths who may be able to make this better.
But you're right, I either need to get rid of this ugly reminder or have it fixed to where I don't notice it as much.
AKElroy
Member
Send it back to S&W. I have seen them return guns looking brand new. They will of course charge, but I have seen amazing work on really rough guns posted on THR.
Black Butte
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If there are obvious imperfections, as there were here, the seller has a duty to make the buyer aware of them. That means specifically pointing them out, and not merely calling the revolver "excellent" with photographs that inadequately show the condition of the gun.
In this case, neither the description nor the photos conveyed a fair assessment of the revolver's condition. I would simply send the revolver back to the seller by certified mail, then submit a claim for the purchase amount with a collection agency. The collection agency will then harass him and ruin his credit score. This guy slapped you in the face. It's time to slap back.
In this case, neither the description nor the photos conveyed a fair assessment of the revolver's condition. I would simply send the revolver back to the seller by certified mail, then submit a claim for the purchase amount with a collection agency. The collection agency will then harass him and ruin his credit score. This guy slapped you in the face. It's time to slap back.
Have you taken any pictures of the top strap with a straight edge on it?
That frame sure looks totalled. Contact the States Attorney in the seller's state and tell them he sold you a defective and dangerous item. Find out what the laws are in the seller's state, your state and Federal and if you ever communicate with the seller again refer to them specifically. Let him know you are not going anywhere, you will post the top strap photo (with straight edge) and your experience with him in every gunboard and that you will cut your nose off to spite your face, that you will spend thousands of dollars and hours to get him to do what is right.
That frame sure looks totalled. Contact the States Attorney in the seller's state and tell them he sold you a defective and dangerous item. Find out what the laws are in the seller's state, your state and Federal and if you ever communicate with the seller again refer to them specifically. Let him know you are not going anywhere, you will post the top strap photo (with straight edge) and your experience with him in every gunboard and that you will cut your nose off to spite your face, that you will spend thousands of dollars and hours to get him to do what is right.
gbw
Member
The seller is surely dishonest and the OP was cheated. I hope he's is able to recover from the seller. I sure wouldn't bet on it.
Just one opinion, I think harrassing the seller and leaving very negative feedback are about the only satisfactions OP will get.
The other recovery options - GunBroker, small claims, fraud, etc., look like very long shots.
The fact is the OP made a risky bet and lost. He purchased a high dollar gun, sight unseen, evidently based on not too good photos (they aren't available any longer), in a clearly stated as-is mail order auction. It's a recipe to be cheated.
I doubt anyone in authority is gonna get too worked up about this, including GB. Hope I'm wrong.
Never purchase AS-IS. If a seller won't stand behind his product there is a reason. Always check for a long history of favorable feedback. Call the seller first, get a feel.
Otherwise pass. There will always be another deal.
Just one opinion, I think harrassing the seller and leaving very negative feedback are about the only satisfactions OP will get.
The other recovery options - GunBroker, small claims, fraud, etc., look like very long shots.
The fact is the OP made a risky bet and lost. He purchased a high dollar gun, sight unseen, evidently based on not too good photos (they aren't available any longer), in a clearly stated as-is mail order auction. It's a recipe to be cheated.
I doubt anyone in authority is gonna get too worked up about this, including GB. Hope I'm wrong.
Never purchase AS-IS. If a seller won't stand behind his product there is a reason. Always check for a long history of favorable feedback. Call the seller first, get a feel.
Otherwise pass. There will always be another deal.
clem
Member
The seller is a liar and a thief and his conduct should be addressed accordingly, and action taken.
Don't let this maggot get away with this!
Don't let this maggot get away with this!
OP
OP
Olympus
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I don't want to send the gun back to him by certified mail because then I'd be out the money AND the gun.
I took the gun to a qualified gunsmith. He agreed that the gun was likely dropped on the top strap. He also agreed that some has attempted to blend the metal to make the gouges less severe looking. He said that is why the top strap looks bent, because they took down the metal on the top in just that one area instead of evenly taking away metal along the whole length. The gunsmith said he would have no issues shooting full power .357 loads if the gun were his. He said "The spots ain't real pretty, but it's still a damn nice gun." I'm still waiting on S&W to get back with me about the pictures I sent to see if they can do something about it. If they can't, I will explore some other recommendations.
It's my opinion that if a person has to blow up a picture to 400% in order to see damage, the person taking the picture is deliberately trying to hide the condition. I think if I lived even remotely close to Florida, I'd pay the seller a personal visit. In my opinion, this guy is on the same level as the scumbag that stole my other 66. The seller is just as much of a thief as the other guy in my opinion.
I've reserved a table at a gun show this coming weekend, so I'll probably take the gun and set it out for sale. Now anytime I look at the gun, I think about that scumbag seller and it makes me want to do not-so-high-road things. Lesson learned and more than likely my last Gun Broker purchase for a very long time. If I can't find it locally, I probably don't need it that bad anyway.
I forgot to mention that I opened a support claim with Gun Broker about this transaction. I just received this response from Gun Broker support:
I took the gun to a qualified gunsmith. He agreed that the gun was likely dropped on the top strap. He also agreed that some has attempted to blend the metal to make the gouges less severe looking. He said that is why the top strap looks bent, because they took down the metal on the top in just that one area instead of evenly taking away metal along the whole length. The gunsmith said he would have no issues shooting full power .357 loads if the gun were his. He said "The spots ain't real pretty, but it's still a damn nice gun." I'm still waiting on S&W to get back with me about the pictures I sent to see if they can do something about it. If they can't, I will explore some other recommendations.
It's my opinion that if a person has to blow up a picture to 400% in order to see damage, the person taking the picture is deliberately trying to hide the condition. I think if I lived even remotely close to Florida, I'd pay the seller a personal visit. In my opinion, this guy is on the same level as the scumbag that stole my other 66. The seller is just as much of a thief as the other guy in my opinion.
I've reserved a table at a gun show this coming weekend, so I'll probably take the gun and set it out for sale. Now anytime I look at the gun, I think about that scumbag seller and it makes me want to do not-so-high-road things. Lesson learned and more than likely my last Gun Broker purchase for a very long time. If I can't find it locally, I probably don't need it that bad anyway.
I forgot to mention that I opened a support claim with Gun Broker about this transaction. I just received this response from Gun Broker support:
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It should sell at a gun show, and hopefully you can get most of your money back. I wouldn't give up on GB. Only buy guns that have an inspection period, not as-is. You probably found one of the few bad apples on GB. I would think most people are on the up and up. Just don't forget to leave the guy a 'F' feedback with details. This will protect the next person, as well as ruin him as a seller.
woad_yurt
Member
Again:
Send it back, unannounced, to his dealer. Be sure to include his contact info in the package. Once you're sure it's in transit, instruct your dealer to refuse any return delivery. Someone on the receiving end will accept delivery, open the package and call him. Then the guy will have his gun and your money. He can't keep both and he can't force anyone to accept delivery of the gun. If he refuses to cough up the cash, inform the postal authorities.
To the USPS:
"I sent it back because it was defective. He's got his gun back and he's still keeping my money...."
As long as you have the gun, it's possible to view the situation as a mere, subjective difference of opinion. If he has both the gun and your money, you're an out-and-out victim. Also, if he's reluctant to pick it up at the dealer's, he'll have a grumbling and very alienated local gun dealer to contend with on his end. One doesn't want to be known as a problem child in a town of only 20,000 (Naples, FL,) his home town.
Send it back, unannounced, to his dealer. Be sure to include his contact info in the package. Once you're sure it's in transit, instruct your dealer to refuse any return delivery. Someone on the receiving end will accept delivery, open the package and call him. Then the guy will have his gun and your money. He can't keep both and he can't force anyone to accept delivery of the gun. If he refuses to cough up the cash, inform the postal authorities.
To the USPS:
"I sent it back because it was defective. He's got his gun back and he's still keeping my money...."
As long as you have the gun, it's possible to view the situation as a mere, subjective difference of opinion. If he has both the gun and your money, you're an out-and-out victim. Also, if he's reluctant to pick it up at the dealer's, he'll have a grumbling and very alienated local gun dealer to contend with on his end. One doesn't want to be known as a problem child in a town of only 20,000 (Naples, FL,) his home town.
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