jwamplerusa
Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2017
- Messages
- 58
I purchased an M&P M2.0 5" Pro series model 11828 UPC 022188871388 in December, as the intended host for a red-dot. Prior to purchase I had concerns regarding Smith & Wesson's use of plastic optic adapter plates, but was assured they did not carry loads and were therefore a non- issue.
The pistol was purchased as a host for an optic, as would be expected. The chosen optic, a Holosun HE509T, was installed as stated in the instructions which came with the optic and pistol. The Holosun HE509T utilizes an RMR footprint for its mounting adapter plate.
On the third trip to the range with this pistol / optic combination I experienced a catastrophic failure of the mounting system Smith and Wesson has chosen for this C.O.R.E. pistol.
I wrote to Smith & Wesson, and made multiple attempts to call with many minutes spent sitting on hold to no avail. Smith & Wesson has not responded to my FAX and I have been unsuccessful in getting a human on the phone. Frankly, I have had better customer service from Taurus.
Based upon the best case from Smith & Wesson llikely being replacement of the sheared Type 1 C.O.R.E. plastic plate, which would not solve the underlying problem, I elected to send the slide assembly to C&H Precision Weapons for installation of their steel plate system.
Between early December when I purchased the 509T and the failure of the C.O.R.E. mounting system, C&H announced their solution for installation of the 509T on a Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. pistol. The C&H SWMP-509T S&W M2.0™ C.O.R.E. Holosun 509T Plate & Slide Upgrade Combo revises the fastener location and type, and provides a fitted steel plate which will lower the 509T on the slide compared to use of the Smith & Wesson plastic plate + Holosun adapter and provide an all metal interface to the optic.
Three days after e-mailing Holosun, I was contacted by them regarding my correspondence. The Holosun representative appeared to have a genuine interest in determining the reason for failure and indicated he had to update the management on the investigation of the reported failure by 1600 hours January 7th. (I have a Quality systems background, and what he was describing was a functioning continuous improvement and event investigation system) When I informed him the slide assembly had been sent to C&H, the Holosun representative indicated they had a relationship with C&H and he would investigate deferring part of the cost of the mod.
I offered to provide the failed screw heads and plate, and the representative committed to finding out if Holosun's engineering staff wanted the parts and if they did he would send a label for their return.
Overall I was impressed with Holosun's response. They took the initiative to contact me based upon the e-mail to their warranty e-mail address and the representative appeared to have a genuine interest in understanding the failure. I did tell him if I was Holosun, I would caution against use of their adapter plate on a Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistol.
Based upon comments from C&H, Holosun, and my experience, my advice to any prospective purchasers of Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistols is to NOT utilize the supplied plastic plates. While they may be adequate for the optics directly identified in the M&P manual, any use with unlisted optics should be considered a probable failure point. For my own part, If I cannot get a steel plate for an optic I would install, the C.O.R.E. system would not be an option, I would just get a standard pistol's slide milled.
I was never able to contact Smith & Wesson, nor did they reach out to me after receiving a FAX detailing the failure.
Holosun was extremely responsive, and behaved in an exemplary manner with a high level of customer service. Holosun replaced the HE509T which impacted the floor, even though I did not ask for a replacement. Further, they defrayed the cost of the C&H Precision Weapon Systems 509T adapter plate installation.
Note that I have dealt with at least three firearms related companies regarding product issues prior to this. Ruger and Holosun I would rank has having the best customer service and product support of those I have dealt with.
Smith & Wesson has proven the worst of those I have dealt with. A truly disappointing performance for a company I held in high regard, especially for a failure related to one of their higher echelon products.
The C&H slide plate and installation should be a sound fix. The plate is tightly fitted to the S&W recoil bosses, and is well matched to the slide contours. The end result is an installation which is more secure, lowers the 509T on the pistol slide, and should be far more durable.
Outcome and recommendations:
I can heartily recommend the Holosun HE509T-RD. My sample size of one survived a release from a slide, flew approximately 12 feet, impacted a Sheetrock wall and dropped to bare concrete from at least 6 feed high. The unit never missed a beat, and other than a barely discernible blemish on the aft right lower corner looked like it did when removed from the packaging. For me, the circle-dot reticle is a winner and I highly recommend it.
I can recommend C&H Precision Weapon Systems. They were very accommodating, and produced what looks like an outstanding professional installation. Time will tell, but if the mount stays secure and stable it is worth every penny. The plate to slide fit appear tight and precise, the contours match the slide (something the S&W plastic plate did not), and as a bonus lowers the optic approximately .100 inch relative to the combination of the S&W plastic RMR plate and Holosun adapter plate. The HE509T also fits nicely within the recoil lug slot of the plate, with no perceptible fore and aft movement when set on the adapter plate, and it moved the optic aft on the slide.
My advice to any prospective purchasers of Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistols is to NOT utilize the supplied plastic plates. While they may be adequate for the optics directly identified in the M&P manual, any use with unlisted optics should be considered a probable failure point. Absolutely, do not trust the M&P C.O.R.E plastic mounting plate in conjunction with the Holosun HE509T adapter plate. That combination will require the procurement of a third party plate to directly mount the 509T to a C.O.R.E. pistol.
For my own part, If I cannot get a steel plate for an optic I would install, the Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. system would not be an option, I would just get a standard pistol's slide milled.
I hope this post will be of use to others. If you have questions, post them here or PM me. The final installation is shown in the attachments. (Now if I could just afford the ammo to really wring it out...)
The pistol was purchased as a host for an optic, as would be expected. The chosen optic, a Holosun HE509T, was installed as stated in the instructions which came with the optic and pistol. The Holosun HE509T utilizes an RMR footprint for its mounting adapter plate.
On the third trip to the range with this pistol / optic combination I experienced a catastrophic failure of the mounting system Smith and Wesson has chosen for this C.O.R.E. pistol.
I wrote to Smith & Wesson, and made multiple attempts to call with many minutes spent sitting on hold to no avail. Smith & Wesson has not responded to my FAX and I have been unsuccessful in getting a human on the phone. Frankly, I have had better customer service from Taurus.
- Though I love my M&P pistols, I am REALLY disappointed in Smith & Wesson. While I am cognizant of their current work load and I expect their Customer Service organization is slammed, I would expect a response to a documented failure on one of their mid-grade products. The failure has also raised concern regarding their engineering practices. Assessment of the failure of the installation on their C.O.R.E. design is not flattering to their design and engineering choices.
Based upon the best case from Smith & Wesson llikely being replacement of the sheared Type 1 C.O.R.E. plastic plate, which would not solve the underlying problem, I elected to send the slide assembly to C&H Precision Weapons for installation of their steel plate system.
Between early December when I purchased the 509T and the failure of the C.O.R.E. mounting system, C&H announced their solution for installation of the 509T on a Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. pistol. The C&H SWMP-509T S&W M2.0™ C.O.R.E. Holosun 509T Plate & Slide Upgrade Combo revises the fastener location and type, and provides a fitted steel plate which will lower the 509T on the slide compared to use of the Smith & Wesson plastic plate + Holosun adapter and provide an all metal interface to the optic.
Three days after e-mailing Holosun, I was contacted by them regarding my correspondence. The Holosun representative appeared to have a genuine interest in determining the reason for failure and indicated he had to update the management on the investigation of the reported failure by 1600 hours January 7th. (I have a Quality systems background, and what he was describing was a functioning continuous improvement and event investigation system) When I informed him the slide assembly had been sent to C&H, the Holosun representative indicated they had a relationship with C&H and he would investigate deferring part of the cost of the mod.
I offered to provide the failed screw heads and plate, and the representative committed to finding out if Holosun's engineering staff wanted the parts and if they did he would send a label for their return.
Overall I was impressed with Holosun's response. They took the initiative to contact me based upon the e-mail to their warranty e-mail address and the representative appeared to have a genuine interest in understanding the failure. I did tell him if I was Holosun, I would caution against use of their adapter plate on a Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistol.
Based upon comments from C&H, Holosun, and my experience, my advice to any prospective purchasers of Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistols is to NOT utilize the supplied plastic plates. While they may be adequate for the optics directly identified in the M&P manual, any use with unlisted optics should be considered a probable failure point. For my own part, If I cannot get a steel plate for an optic I would install, the C.O.R.E. system would not be an option, I would just get a standard pistol's slide milled.
I was never able to contact Smith & Wesson, nor did they reach out to me after receiving a FAX detailing the failure.
Holosun was extremely responsive, and behaved in an exemplary manner with a high level of customer service. Holosun replaced the HE509T which impacted the floor, even though I did not ask for a replacement. Further, they defrayed the cost of the C&H Precision Weapon Systems 509T adapter plate installation.
Note that I have dealt with at least three firearms related companies regarding product issues prior to this. Ruger and Holosun I would rank has having the best customer service and product support of those I have dealt with.
Smith & Wesson has proven the worst of those I have dealt with. A truly disappointing performance for a company I held in high regard, especially for a failure related to one of their higher echelon products.
The C&H slide plate and installation should be a sound fix. The plate is tightly fitted to the S&W recoil bosses, and is well matched to the slide contours. The end result is an installation which is more secure, lowers the 509T on the pistol slide, and should be far more durable.
Outcome and recommendations:
I can heartily recommend the Holosun HE509T-RD. My sample size of one survived a release from a slide, flew approximately 12 feet, impacted a Sheetrock wall and dropped to bare concrete from at least 6 feed high. The unit never missed a beat, and other than a barely discernible blemish on the aft right lower corner looked like it did when removed from the packaging. For me, the circle-dot reticle is a winner and I highly recommend it.
I can recommend C&H Precision Weapon Systems. They were very accommodating, and produced what looks like an outstanding professional installation. Time will tell, but if the mount stays secure and stable it is worth every penny. The plate to slide fit appear tight and precise, the contours match the slide (something the S&W plastic plate did not), and as a bonus lowers the optic approximately .100 inch relative to the combination of the S&W plastic RMR plate and Holosun adapter plate. The HE509T also fits nicely within the recoil lug slot of the plate, with no perceptible fore and aft movement when set on the adapter plate, and it moved the optic aft on the slide.
My advice to any prospective purchasers of Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. equipped pistols is to NOT utilize the supplied plastic plates. While they may be adequate for the optics directly identified in the M&P manual, any use with unlisted optics should be considered a probable failure point. Absolutely, do not trust the M&P C.O.R.E plastic mounting plate in conjunction with the Holosun HE509T adapter plate. That combination will require the procurement of a third party plate to directly mount the 509T to a C.O.R.E. pistol.
For my own part, If I cannot get a steel plate for an optic I would install, the Smith & Wesson C.O.R.E. system would not be an option, I would just get a standard pistol's slide milled.
I hope this post will be of use to others. If you have questions, post them here or PM me. The final installation is shown in the attachments. (Now if I could just afford the ammo to really wring it out...)
