Feeding problems with 9mm - help!

[bison]

I'm new to reloading and can use some help - I loaded a bunch of 9mm for my pistol using bulk 115 gr jacketed bullets. I used 3.7 grains of Clays, a load that I believe is right in the middle of the 3.5-3.9 gn recommended range. At the range today I had big problems getting these to feed right in my Beretta 92. Almost every round either wouldn't properly eject the empty casing or wouldn't properly feed the next round. Ugh!

I tried some in my buddy's pistol (Glock?) and they fed perfectly every time. What's the problem??

My theory is that the charge is too light based on the incomplete feeding and that they worked fine in a lighter gun that presumably (?) doesn't need as much "oomph" to cycle. If so, I'd guess I should go up to 3.9 grains?

I also suspect Clay's isn't the best 9mm power (but it's the only one the local shop had when I bought my stuff a few months ago). Is this true, and if so what's a "no brainer" powder? I just plink with this gun.

Thanks!

 

[Walkalong]

Probably right on both counts.

Try a mid range charge of a bit slower powder like W-231, WSF, Unique, HS-6, or AA #5.

If you don't have one, bump your charge up .1 Gr and try again.

 

[LiveLife]

Almost every round either wouldn't properly eject the empty casing or wouldn't properly feed the next round. Ugh! I also suspect Clay's isn't the best 9mm power

I had the same problem. Remember, 9mm case is tapered and does not size all the way down. Before you change the powder, I would check the dimensions of the sized case and the loaded rounds. First, take the barrel out of the Beretta and drop the sized case into the chamber. It should fall all the way down to the case neck. If it does not and your sized case gets stuck in the chamber, you are not sizing the case all the way to the bottom or the base of your cases have expanded larger than normal. If this is the case and they fed fine in Glock, that's because Glock barrels have larger chamber than most factory barrels.

If the cases are not full-length sized properly or have expanded case base, they will be hammered into the tighter Beretta chamber by the weight/force of the slide (difficulty feeding/chambering), and then you will have hard time ejecting the case. This happens when case base expands from heavy charge and sizing die cannot reduce the diameter of the case all the way down to the base

I found this out when I had the same problem with some 9mm cases sized on a progressive press not chambering fully in the tight Lone Wolf barrels. The problem was resolved when I sized the same case on the single stage press using a shell holder. It happens that some shell plate for a progressive press is thicker on the top to not allow the bottom of the die to come down as far as to the top of the shell holder (which has thinner top). Since, I have noticed that some new shell plates come with top machined with a circle at each station.

I tried some in my buddy's pistol (Glock?) and they fed perfectly every time.

Glock chambers are looser and cut into the ramp area more than other factory barrels. Just because a loaded round chambers into a Glock chamber does not mean it was loaded to proper case dimensions (diameter/length). Glocks have stiffer recoil spring than Beretta. If there was not enough powder charge, it would have given more problem with the feed/ejection cycling of the Glock slide. I think the feed/ejection problem maybe due to case prep/sizing/flare/taper crimp/OAL.

BTW, where did the ejected cases land when shot from the Glock? Next to your feet or behind you? I often gauge how the spent cases eject to determine adequate powder charge (Weak ejection straight up and landing near feet = light charge. Hard ejection towards the back and landing 6-10 feet to the right = moderate/heavy charge).

Also, perhaps not all of your case neck flare got taken in with the taper crimp die?

And what OAL did you use for your rounds?

 

[bison]

bds - thx for the detailed thoughts - I did as you suggested and dropped a case (actually loaded bullet) into the barrel and it went in easily down to the neck. My terminology might not be right there - all that stuck out was the base and part of the groove just above the base. So I think that's OK??

The COL I'm using is 1.10". I did not notice where the empties were landing (and honestly am not sure it was a Glock...).

Thx -

 

[LiveLife]

Great, if your loaded round chambered fine in the barrel, no problem with the sizing (darn, sorry for the long-winded spill)

So, it looks like your OAL may be suspect. Can you load a dummy round to 1.125" and see if that feeds/chambers from the magazine when you manually release the slide?

If the longer OAL feeds/chambers well, try some test loads at that OAL. And as Walkalong suggested, make some test loads at higher charge too.

 

[Jim Watson]

How did it chamber as compared to a factory load?

1.10" is pretty short for a roundnose if that is what your bulk bullets are; there may be a bulge at the base.

Clays is a way fast burning powder. Some European guns do not handle them well; being set up for the pressure curve of a 5-7 grain load of something made there.

 

[LiveLife]

If the rounds are sized properly with OAL that feeds well, I would think Clays should work for 9mm.

On the Hodgdon burn rate chart, Clays is listed similar to other powders that work well for 9mm:

8 Alliant Red Dot
9 Alliant Promo
10 Hodgdon CLAYS
11 Alliant Clay Dot
12 IMR 700-X
13 Alliant Bullseye
14 Hodgdon TITEGROUP

 

[bison]

I checked a dummy round at 1.125" and it worked fine in the mag and fed fine as well. I checked some factory loads (UMC) that are loaded to COL of 1.105" - they seemed to chamber and fit in the barrel just like my current 1.10" rounds.

So seems like the path per bds is to try the longer 1.125" COL with current 3.7gn load as well as higher (maybe I'll load some at both 3.8 and 3.9). I'll give that a try - thanks for the tips!

 

[Walkalong]

Clays is listed similar to other powders that work well for 9mm:

But in the real world, Clays is really fast for 9MM. Many better choices. 700X is a better choice for a fast powder in 9MM. IMHO of course. It's more forgiving.

 

[rcmodel]

To test for proper power to operate the gun.

Single load one round in a magazine.
Shoot it.
See if it will lock the slide open.

Keep working up on the powder charge until it will reliably lock the slide back every time.
That right there is the minimum charge for your gun.

rc

 

[LiveLife]

But in the real world, Clays is really fast for 9MM. Many better choices.

Yes, I think that might be the case. I was going by bison's post that Clays was the only powder he had to work with for now.

it's the only one the local shop had when I bought my stuff a few months ago

bison, perhaps the local shop has more powders in stock by now? There are better powders for 9mm:

700X (never used it, but similar to W231/HP38 according to Walkalong's picture/experience)
W231/HP38 (Green Dot if you can't find neither)
Bullseye
Promo (I use this powder to duplicate many factory ammunition loads now)
Many more ...

 

[Steve C]

Like Walkalong wrote Clays is really fast. Clays also seems to be reach peak pressure with small changes in charge. The load range for a Speer 115gr JHP according to Hodgdon is 3.7 to 3.9, a very narrow range of loads. Fast powders in the 9mm can fail to provide a long enough impulse to cycle some pistols. Accurate used to warn about this problem if using AA#2.

A change in spring wt. to a lighter spring would probably fix your problem in the 92 but its easier to get a better powder in the medium burn rate like Unique, Universal, AA#5.

 

[oneounceload]

Universal Clays also works well in the 9mm, works well in most small pistol cartridges

 

[Walkalong]

similar to W231/HP38 according to Walkalong's picture

That was Zip.

Link to post

Looks just like W-231. I should do a side by side velocity test one of these days.

 

[Jim Watson]

700X is a large flake shotshell powder and does not meter very well in light pistol charges. I have shot a lot of it because I keep it for 12 gauge, but it can be aggravating. Anything under about 4 grains and it is subject to occasionally delivering one grain from the measure.

I load 9mm with HP38.

 

[LiveLife]

similar to W231/HP38 according to Walkalong's picture

That was Zip.

Dang, I stand corrected. :banghead:

Walkalong, it must be the 104F+ heatwave that's probably frying my brain (wife is yelling my brain got fried a long time ago).

Yes, I recall that thread - Zip not 700X.

 

[918v]

HS-6 is my go to 9mm powder right now, especially with light loads. Clays is too fast for the 9mm. 231 is good, but HS-6 is consistently more accurate in my gun. I didn't want to use it at first because I thought it was too slow burning for light loads. Boy was I wrong!

 

[Walkalong]

I haven't tried light loads with HS-6 in 9MM for the same reason, I assumed it would not do well. Sounds like I need to give it a try.

My two favorite light 9MM loads right now use 700X and N-320.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Bison -
I second the idea of going longer on your OAL. You can take most RN bullets out all the way to the SAAMI max of 1.169". So if you experiment with increments of .010" or .020" you may notice some differences.

Now as the OAL gets longer, the pressure will tend to drop which may call for ever so slightly more powder. Not always, but sometimes.

 

[918v]

One of my favorites right now is a 124gr JSP @ 1.120" OAL on top of 5.3grs of HS-6 and sparked by FC-100. It shoots .75" groups at 15 yards from my P210 and kicks like a 22. According to QL it is running 18700 PSI, kinda like a 45 ACP.

 

[orrwdd]

Like Walkalong wrote Clays is really fast. Clays also seems to be reach peak pressure with small changes in charge. The load range for a Speer 115gr JHP according to Hodgdon is 3.7 to 3.9, a very narrow range of loads. Fast powders in the 9mm can fail to provide a long enough impulse to cycle some pistols. Accurate used to warn about this problem if using AA#2.

A change in spring wt. to a lighter spring would probably fix your problem in the 92 but its easier to get a better powder in the medium burn rate like Unique, Universal, AA#5.

+1 on Unique or AA #5. I don't like using the fast powders in 9mm.

Bill

 

[TonyAngel]

If you want to shoot a pop gun load in 9mm, and are attempting to use a relatively light charge, you're going to have better luck with a light load in a slower power than you will with a light load in a faster powder.

I went through the same thing you are when looking for a 9mm load to shoot out of my springfield XD for my 11 year old. I settled on AA#5 and a 147gr projectile.

 

[918v]

What was your charge weight? I tried it with XTP's and the results weren't anything to brag about.

 

[bison]

To pick this up again... I loaded a few different COL's and charges and headed to the range. Still using Clays for now. Tried rcmodel's test for minimum charge and found that at the roughly 3.8 gn charge I'd been using the slide would not lock back. At 3.9gn it would consistently lock. 3.9gn's at COL of either 1.10" or 1.15" cycled just fine.

So the good news is that it looks like 3.9 gn's of Clays works well for my pistol at a COL in the area of 1.10-1.15". What worries me is that per the data that's already the max load, and thus given the likely variability of my Lee powder dispenser (I have to assume +/- 0.1 gn or so) I might end up over the max recommended load slightly. Should I be worried?

Sounds like the ultimate answer is trying a different powder. Am planning on this but have a bunch of Clays left that I'd just as soon use.

Thx -

 

[918v]

Clays is way too fast burning for this application. The only thing that is saving your arsch is that 9mm brass is incredibly strong. You are running 46000 PSI per QL and that's only the beginning of the problem because the pressure curve is twice as steep as it should be. I suggest you stop reloading until you understand internal ballistics, metallurgy, and stress a little better.