feeding the .410 revolver

[The Good]

I started a thread a short while back to get some advice before I went and bought a smith and wesson governor. The folks who responded ended up giving me plenty of useful information and I decided to buy it because the things I had concerns about were addressed. HOWEVER, the folks in that thread gave me something new to think about, and even though itwas discussed there, I wanted to get more input by giving this question it's own thread.
Now that .410 revolvers are clearly here to stay awhile, and ammo is being made specifically for .410 handguns, what should governor/judge owners feed their gun for self defense? I know a lot of people feel that .45 long colt is a better self defense load and would therefore be the best choice. you may be correct, but i dont hsve any questions about that i'm keeping all 3 types of ammo handy.. but right now my question is about .410. when i stock my home defense ammo, which 2.5" .410 load works best in a handgun?

 

[weregunner]

You might want to take a look at www.taurusarmed.net/forums/judge/ and so some research over there.

 

[suemarkp]

About the only buckshot load that works well is the federal 4 pellet OOO buck round. They use hard pellets that don't pancake while being launched, and you get four of them instead of three. They also group the tightest of any of the loads I've tried. Their #4 shot load is decent, but I'd use it on animals and not people.

Pre-Judge buck loads don't work well (lousy patterns, the soft pellets pancake reducing penetration, and they are slow). The Remington load for the Judge are OK, but not as good as the Federal and is OO instead of OOO buck. The Win PDX load I'm afraid has insufficient penetration (BB and 3 discs). The BB pattern is rather wide too. Hornady has an interesting load with a 40 caliber FTX bullet and two OOO buck pellets, but I have not tried it.

 

[Tallbald]

One thing that has always concerned me about buckshot in a handgun is that from childhood, I was taught to "know my backstop ". I myself summer-carry a Bond Derringer with .45 Colt polymer tip ammo. I too could carry .410 buckshot loads, but have a concern that if I ever HAVE to use the little gun in self defense, a stray ball outside a center-of-mass shot could go who knows where and injure an innocent. Myself, I'd rather practice and depend on a well-placed single projectile to protect myself. But I'm neither a trained law enforcement officer or military person, and any life or death situation I find myself in will likely cause me to poop my pants right off. SO I may be missing something. Don

 

[The Good]

It makes sense to me when someone says a concern when using a gun defensively is innocent bystanders, but it always stops making sense when they tell me it's a factor in choosing ammo. Before i ever heard it in discussions about .410 revolvers, i heard it all the time in discussions about hollow point ammunition. People would say they use hollow point because it will stop inside the body rather than exiting and possibly hitting an innocent bystander on the other side of the target. That confuses me a little bit. If there's a possibility of hitting an innocent bystander with a bullet that passes through the target, then there's also a chance of hitting that bystander with a bullet that misses the target. No matter how well your hollow point mushrooms, or how tight your shot loads hold together, you should be prepared for anything on the other side of your target to be hit. That's why when I pick an ammunition, i'm not concerned about stray bbs hitting someone. If theres someone on the other aide of my target, taking a shot isn't an option

 

[suemarkp]

You should be shooting from a close enough range that it shouldn't matter. Even with a single projectile, cops miss their target all the time (e.g. 30+ shots fired and <10 holes in the perp...). In a panic you may completely miss. At least with buck loads, the ball sheds velocity quickly and will stop sooner and penetrate less than a heavy bullet. But there are 4 of them per shot....

You'll have to weigh the liability from missing against the threat posed to you. With a Bond derringer, I would hope you'd only shoot from arms distance anyway so it should be difficult to miss.

 

[TUBBY1]

I've shot three inch 000 buck in my ck 2000 bond arms which is five pellet but only from 6 to 10 yards and was surprised how close they hit. The 2.5 inch were only three pellet and were tighter than the five . Slugs are more like 45 long colt. At five yards and under I would feel comfortable with any of those loads. Carjacking deter ant for sure.

 

[nonseven]

I'm not so sure I'd recommend the Federal 410 loads. 3 out of 4 Judges I've had would lock up the cylinder with Federal 410 handgun shells. I investigated and found it was the Federal brass in the primer area swelling to the point that it binds between the cylinder & the back of the frame.

I've since switched to the Remington 2 1/2 buckshot (4 00 pellets) loads and their brass does not have this problem.

The Remington loads do shoot a looser pattern, something like 8" at 7 yards, but if you subscribe to the Judge type defense concept that may be preferable. Federals are so tight it's not a lot different than using a single slug at that distance. Federals use a shot cup type wad to hold the buckshot, and Remington's use a short wad just at the base. If you load your own you can control the spread by the type of wad you use.

 

[suemarkp]

Wonder if Taurus or Federal has changed something. I have two Judges and I've never had any trouble with the Federal ammo. The only thing that sticks is some of the loads I make myself using 444 Marlin brass. I've also seen some loads for sale at Midway and the reviews say "don't use in the Judge" for a few other brands. Usually the cites problem is hard extraction and not cylinder lock up.

 

[The Good]

Any thoughts on the winchester pdx-1 that contains 3 plated discs with 12 bbs behind them? I first heard about them here in my old thread when someone said they look good on paper but it doesn't translate to trur effectiveness because of poor penetration or something. Whatever it was, i'm not sure normal ballistic tests that we use to measure stopping power are applicable with this type of ammunition. Here's a load that at 7 feet will deliver 15 projectiles to a body sized target. Even if they all only go in a quarter of an inch, that's still a pretty effective means of stopping someone.

I have another question. Does anyone have any experience with rubber buckshot loads in these guns?

 

[pikid89]

The pdx loads look great in commercials where they shoot watermelons and Shoot-N-Sees, but in practice, the three discs seem gimmicky, and last time i checked, BB pellets are used for waterfowl, not the best choice for SD

 

[RealGun]

I follow hickok45 on YouTube, and his evaluation of various shot sizes in the Judge convinced me to use Federal 0000, which gives the best spread at short range, among the ammo tested.

I have never seen the point about big pellets making a single hole. If I wanted penetration and a kill shot, I would probably shoot some other gun or .45 Colt, although I have better, dedicated .45 Colt guns.

 

[nonseven]

The BBs in the PDX1 410 load spread out so much in a Judge they are pretty much worthless past 5 feet or so - and you might hit something you don't want to in a self defense situation. And I'm not convinced about the penetration of the discs. Now in a 410 shotgun, those PDX1s have enough velocity and better patterning that I think they might be ok - certainly a potent little vermin load.

I think the Remington buckshot loads are hot - hotter than the Federal. Next time you shoot some Federal, take a look at the daylight left between the empty cartridge brass and the back of the frame.

The new Hornady 410 triple threat load - with one slug and two 00 buckshot - are also worth considering.

 

[gunownerz]

Thanks for the tip on the Youtube account recommendation. Really useful. I'll check in more on this account for more information.

 

[The Good]

@nonseven could you explain why you feel the bbs present a danger in a aelf defense situation? I'm trying to imagine a scenario where firing multiple projectiles would increase the risk of hitting innocent bystanders. Like I said before, if there's a chance of hitting someone with a stray bb, there's a chance of hitting them with a shot that misses the target too. If there's an innocent bystander beyond your target, i don't care how sure you are of your shot, you have a chance of hitting that person no matter how many projectiles are flying around.

For me, it doesn't really matter if shots go astray because if i took a shot, the area the projectile strayed into was clear.

 

[nonseven]

00 or 000 Buckshot in a 410 shell are stacked single file in the shell - when they are shot, they tend to stay together. At 7 yards (typical gunfight distance) even with the Remington load, the buckshot pellets are going to stay within a "torso-size" target.

At 7 yards, from a Judge, the BBs are spreading out well beyond the 18" or so torso size of a human target - probably more like 30" or more.

If you've been to a typical CCW handgun class - you see that the actual shooting test is pretty easy. The instructor is wanting to make sure you can handle the gun safely and have a reasonable chance of hitting the person you are shooting at, and not the person standing next to them. All of this at relatively close range.

In a self defense situation, keep in mind that you could be protecting your family as well, and you want a reasonable chance to hit your target, and not stuff to the periphery of your target.


Plus, those BBs don't penetrate worth crap compared to the buckshot. They're likely to bounce off a hard suface hit on an angle. This becomes more likely indoors. Do you really want 12 BBs bouncing around and ricocheting all over the house? Heck, one may come back and hit you.

Take some of those PDXs and shoot them at some wood boards at an angle in a outdoor range or in the woods. You'll see what I mean. And make sure you have a good pair of safety glasses on.

 

[farm23]

I do not have a 410 handgun but follow with interest. There is a web site with info; www.410handguns.com that is interesting.

 

[TUBBY1]

Thanks Farm 23, that sight is awesome.