Feeling on 3d printable rifles and mags?

[barnbwt]

C'mon guys, let's not get distracted by "possession politics" "rolleyes". 3D RP is the topic at hand. But, while we're here...

I hope you know even the cheapest pistol on the market would be more reliable and a better self defense tool

Have you seen the crap turned in at buy-backs? Old Iver Johnson's and the like that haven't worked for at least 50 years? Rusted into bricks? An RP gun (or even factory made, if that makes you feel better) of low quality would be far cheaper than anything designed for reliably delivering hundreds of thousands of rounds.

If you were to simply receive a lower receiver, free of charge, could you honestly say you could build a cheaper AR15 than buying a NIB or used glock at the gun store?

No one's tried to make an all-RP firearm of any sort, or any glock-clone that I'm aware of. The AR (a fairly high-end locking breach firearm, in comparison to a blowback operated pistol) is just the idea being played with by DD at the moment. No reason you couldn't print a Glock frame or even a Liberator pistol--it just hasn't been tried yet. In case anyone reading this doesn't know, any design would need lots of metallic reinforcement, so the "undetectable" line doesn't apply.

With great leaps in technology, come the possibilities for both good and evil.

And there's scarcely little we law-abiding folks can do about it, so why bother fretting the inevitable misuse instead of simply defending ourselves against it? If it makes you feel better, drug cartels already have industrial-scale manufacturing operations for their dope, fleets of armored technical vehicles, and even friggin submarines. I'm certain they are busy converting (illegally ) smuggled semi-auto rifles into machine guns (again, illegally) with their own paid machinists, and wouldn't find low-quality low power starvation guns all that interesting.

What I wanted to say was, this doesn't require NEARLY the programming skills or resources to use a CNC machine. This 3D printer is cheap and portable enough to be used by anyone with rudimentary knowledge of CAD software, so the comparison is not analogous.

Absoletely. It is the Gutenberg Printing Press of parts manufacture. We weathered the evils brought about the printing press (namely, every evil ideology ever promulgated through script and every war propagandized), we can surely withstand a slightly less effective class of defensive/offensive implement being available to the public.

Sorry for sticking a finger in your pie, but every coin has two sides.

And the last domino falls like a house of cards. Checkmate. (couldn't resist)

TCB

 

[klyph]

Yes it will still, for the foreseeable future, be easier to buy a hi point off the street. Even with a 3d printer in every house.

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Sam,
To point 1, that assumption places an awful lot of faith in the justice system. Certain particular crimes, violent and sexual in nature particularly have high rates of recidivism. In a national study done within 3 years 7/10 released males are re-arrested and half of those are imprisoned.

To point 2, that's very true and I agree here. I'm just a bit uneasy that it's easier for mentally ill but intelligent persons barred from possessing arms having legal means to construct a pretty powerful weapon like an AR piece by piece.

@barnbwt

The primary objective of DDist was to produce the wikiweapon, an all polymer gun capable of firing one, or two shots. I haven't seen any progress from them, so thats why I assume they hit a few major snags and skipped to the AR lower.

I'm sure the public can survive having lower quality weapons, and we both know that when I said "on the market" I meant a gun store, not a gun that was rusted shut..
I'm sure this is mainly where we differ in opinions, but in my mind a weapon that only lasts one or two rounds is more of an assassination tool than a self defense device. I wouldn't only load a pistol to 2-3 rounds, and I wouldn't expect anyone else to.

 

[Sam1911]

To point 1, that assumption places an awful lot of faith in the justice system. Certain particular crimes, violent and sexual in nature particularly have high rates of recidivism. In a national study done within 3 years 7/10 released males are re-arrested and half of those are imprisoned.

Well, actually it puts very little faith in the system...they're letting folks go who shouldn't be. But that's a huge social issue that goes beyond THR's scope.

To point 2, that's very true and I agree here. I'm just a bit uneasy that it's easier for mentally ill but intelligent persons barred from possessing arms having legal means to construct a pretty powerful weapon like an AR piece by piece.

Remember, however, that if they are prohibited from BUYING a gun, then they're prohibited from making one either...so it's not a "legal means." If they aren't prohibited then it is their right.

 

[gotigers]

I am a Sr. CADD Designer. All i've done for 13 years is 3D modeling. I've dealt with thousands of 3d printed parts over that time. I wouldn't trust any 3d printed receiver that wasn't glass, fiber or metal filled for more than a few rounds. Even the filled parts would be scary after a few dozen rounds.

The ABS desktop printers don't have the ability to use the filled plastics. The fillled 3d printed parts typically are made by machines that cost more than a small house. Desktop ABS non filled printers are just a few thousand.

The non filled plastics might last a few rounds. Using CADD you can always beef up the high stress areas. I have several 3d models of AR lowers and other guns. The prototype shop manager and i have been tempted to try it.

They would make a great OH "SHOOT" gun. Use it for a few shots until you get to your real AR.

 

[helotaxi]

"I thought the forging was needed to get necessary strength"

Not a mechanical engineer, just a hobby machinist, but I'm going to go with 'I don't think so'; forging doesn't make metal stronger, but it can help by affecting grain direction. A chunk of metal is made up of little crystals, called grains (there are exotic exceptions, like jet turbine blades, that are grown as single crystals). As cast those grains are 'equiaxial', i.e. not on the average larger in one axis or another. When you work metal - rolling or forging - the grains get squished out to be little flat pancakes (it you're rolling plate) or elongated (if you're rolling rod). With a forging, you can arrange the forging process so those elongated grains bend around angles, and that can be stronger than just machining from a chunk where the grain lines don't bend.

Just guessing again, the only place on an AR lower where that would matter would be where the rear sweeps up to hold the buffer tube. My hunch is that a billet machined AR would still be strong enough there, but it you had any doubts you could just leave that part of the receiver oversized.

I machined a billet 1911 frame. I haven't put a lot of rounds through it - probably no more than a few hundred - but it shows no sign of problems.

n.b. that aluminum *alloys* do vary quite a bit in strength, so if you're casting your own blanks you might want to pay attention to that.

If you're making a lower, you don't want to start with a casting. Olympic tried this years ago and their lowers so made were junk. Cast aluminum is weak. What you want is to start from a rolled or forged billet that has a good grain structure aligned the way you want it and then to machine the entire shape from scratch. If you look at the good billet lowers on the market, they are slightly thicker at the rear, as you mentioned.

 

[helotaxi]

I'm certain they are busy converting (illegally ) smuggled semi-auto rifles into machine guns (again, illegally) with their own paid machinists, and wouldn't find low-quality low power starvation guns all that interesting.

They wouldn't find converted semi-autos all that interesting either considering on the international black market they can buy the real thing cheaper.

 

[Deer_Freak]

Promag is making polymer magazines now. 3D printers aren't that far from being able to print a polymer magazine or other components. Polymer really is a fancy word for plastic. The way that our current congress moves the technology to print polymer parts will exist by the time they pass any kind of a ban.

 

[justice06rr]

I personally would not use them if I had the choice. Its not quality tested and are prone to break, as seen in the vids.

 

[rcmodel]

A solid molded plastic mag body as a far cry from a printer generated laminated magazine made out of a gazillion layers of plastic sheet glued together by a little heat.

rc

 

[gotigers]

I would never trust a 3d printed receiver. A mag maybe for an emergency.

 

[barnbwt]

They wouldn't find converted semi-autos all that interesting either considering on the international black market they can buy the real thing cheaper.

I'm not speaking from authority, I just figured, you know, seeing as the cartels are buying lots of American guns illegally, that they are probably converting some of them...

I would never trust a 3d printed receiver. A mag maybe for an emergency.

People said the same thing about Glocks and plastic magazines at one time. If it works, who cares? (no, it doesn't quite "work" yet, but it will)

Oh, I got a reply from Formlabs, the company about to roll out a affordabilish (3000$) SLA printer that will make much stronger forms than FDM plastic squirting prototypers:

Thanks for your questions. Answers are below

1.We don't anticipate resin development or shipment to be any problem. We have been ramping up our production schedule and that includes projections for resin. (good to hear, sounds like their ~120$/Liter resin should be plentiful)
2.Yes, we work with a contract manufacturer in the US. And all of our software has been developed in-house. ('murican made, good)
3.The laser is rated for 10,000 hours. (good to know)
4.We haven't tested any parts like that, so I can't comment. (in reference to my query "Does Formlabs have an opinion regarding their products' use for printing legally manufacturable components for firearms?" I notice they do not express displeasure at this prospect, the way Makerbot/Thingiverse has)
)

Let me know if you have any further questions.

I'll probably be preordering one of these in a few weeks. I figured I should check to see if they were gun-hostile, before giving them my hard-earned dollars.

TCB

 

[xfyrfiter]

It is legal for an individual to manufacture a firearm for personal use, not legal for sale unless serialized, and if done can only be done a very few times without a mfr. ffl, which puts you in a whole new kettle of fish. However mag parts etc. no limit.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

I hope the technology improves. I hope that it can be perfected. I hope that there is competition. I hope prices plummet so that most can afford it. I hope it's never stopped or regulated. Bring it on...

 

[klyph]

It is legal for an individual to manufacture a firearm for personal use, not legal for sale unless serialized, and if done can only be done a very few times without a mfr. ffl, which puts you in a whole new kettle of fish. However mag parts etc. no limit.

Firearms manufactured for personal use are not required to be serialized even when sold. There is no limit to the number of personal use firearms that may be sold, so long as they were not manufactured with intent to sell.

 

[barnbwt]

It is legal for an individual to manufacture a firearm for personal use, not legal for sale unless serialized, and if done can only be done a very few times without a mfr. ffl, which puts you in a whole new kettle of fish. However mag parts etc. no limit.

Oh, I just came with another (perhaps the biggest) advantage for printable parts; NO BAN PANIC PRICE SWINGS

Stripped plastic AR lowers were going for upwards of 2 hunsky today at the Mesquite Gunshow (and I'm sure they were selling <shakes head in disgust>). Even simple stuff like stocks and plastic accessories were bid up. However, in future ban panics, it's unlikely that materials for prototyping would be in shortage, due to their much more diversified usage. It's not inconcievable to think you'd be able to pay it off in parts savings within a couple years.

I'm not sure how the ATF treats this, though; does "self-manufacture" mean you have to own the prototyper? It doesn't where mills/lathes are concerned. Does "self manufacture" mean you have to design the receiver being made? It doesn't where AR forgings and AK flats are concerned. Does "self manufacture" simply mean you need to be the one pushing "go" on a premade template file after filling the prototyper? The lack of "skill" involved to make these parts is what worries everyone. To that, I say, there's a reason certain folk weren't allowed to read back in the day, and it's not on the side of history you'd want to be on.

TCB

 

[Screamin'Eagle]

I think someone could make a simple part out of steel that ties into the buffer tube and castle nut that is fixed on an AR-15 upper to keep the back of the printed receiver(buffer tower?) from flexing and breaking off. It could be made in a way to still facilitate easy break down.

 

[-v-]

I don't see the worry with this any more then a fellon/prohibited person buying themselves a CNC controlled 4-axis hobby lathe, downloading the parts from the internet, clamping in a piece of aluminum billet and pressing go.

Realistically, consider the price. Most/all of these devices cost thousands of dollars. Your average criminal is going to steal a gun or buy a stole gun for $200 on the street. Few are going to go through the trouble of investing several thousand to make guns at home. The subset who would do so for criminal distribution already do do that with lathe/mill machines anyway.

 

[beatledog7]

Viva le free enterprise!

Government has never invented anything of value. Military hardware is all invented/developed by private, mostly publicly traded companies. Even NASA' Project Apollo simply doled out contract money to private contractors to figure out how to make it happen.

What government has done is restrict invention and innovation, and whenever it does, it kills jobs, diminishes the entrepreneurial spirit, and stifles the American dream. If 3D printer technology can make toss-away firearms, so be it. The price of liberty must occasionally be paid in blood.

 

[WhippingBoy]

Here are some tests and interesting pictures:

Printed Receiver

 

[WardenWolf]

There's significantly different grades of 3d printers, each with different capabilities. Right now, the types that can fuse powdered metal or make high-grade plastics are very expensive and far out of reach of most people. And even then you're still only talking about AR lowers or accessories. You're never going to be able to make a bolt, barrel, or chamber with one. Even trigger group components would be a stretch, although those are conceivably possible, at least for a relatively low lifespan.

Magazines are possible. Someone has even managed to come up with a printable plastic spring. I doubt it would last very long, though. The only good aspect of these things is they make the idea of gun control by restricting the sale of replacement parts far less viable. Barring the sale of replacement magazine springs, for example, is no longer a way to get rid of grandfathered or contraband "high-cap" mags if an individual can just print off a functional spring at home.

There's an old saying, "Information is ammunition." This is becoming true in a very literal sense. And to restrict weapons, they will now have to criminalize information. Once you get to that level, excessive restriction becomes a losing proposition.

 

[goon]

I am growing to like the idea just from the point that it makes trying to regulate some things, like magazines, not worth the effort.

 

[klover]

3D printing, drones, technology

interesting interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d6xK2PP24Q