answerguy
Member
Don't worry about the money Mr Smoak lost from his wallet. The THP will be filling it up for him many times over.
Felony stop leaves family traumatized continued.... (THE POLICE DOG KILL VIDEO)
- Thread starter WonderNine
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ojibweindian
Member
The cop has more than just "software" issues; his "hardware" is hosed, as well.
DDGator
Member
You can criticize us for reaching conclusions based upon solely this video, but we are just the first on the list -- Internal Affairs, State Attorney, Civil Jury, etc. When you have a dashboard cam -- that becomes the focus of anyone's analysis.
I think the dog was clearly non-threatening. A vicious dog would have been barking and forthing at the mouth and trying to get out of that car. The dog either got out (finally) of a door or was let out. Dogs arent sharks. They dont circle their prey. This dog was happy to be out of the car and was bounding past a "target" only to come back to see what was going on. A vicious dog would charge right for his intended target.
As for those defending the cops because their hands were full or they couldnt be distracted -- that doesnt hold water. There were plenty of cops there to cover the couple of suspects, who were cooperative. By that time they should have had a pretty good idea that this was the wrong people.
I hope this cop gets disciplined. I am sure the people will sue, but dont expect too much. A dog is considered personal property. Depends on the law there, but in Florida you couldnt recover too much on this type of claim.
I think the dog was clearly non-threatening. A vicious dog would have been barking and forthing at the mouth and trying to get out of that car. The dog either got out (finally) of a door or was let out. Dogs arent sharks. They dont circle their prey. This dog was happy to be out of the car and was bounding past a "target" only to come back to see what was going on. A vicious dog would charge right for his intended target.
As for those defending the cops because their hands were full or they couldnt be distracted -- that doesnt hold water. There were plenty of cops there to cover the couple of suspects, who were cooperative. By that time they should have had a pretty good idea that this was the wrong people.
I hope this cop gets disciplined. I am sure the people will sue, but dont expect too much. A dog is considered personal property. Depends on the law there, but in Florida you couldnt recover too much on this type of claim.
rock jock
Member
Perhaps they were trying to compensate for their racial profiling of black suspects?
KMKeller, The video I've seen does not clearly show the dog in relation to the cop. If I see the one you describe, I'll probably agree with you.
F4GIB, You make a good point. I have experienced the enforcement mode. I was shooting pool in a bar once when a drug bust went down. The fact that I didn't do drugs would not have mattered to the undercover officer pointing his Glock at my face, had I not done exactly as he said.
F4GIB, You make a good point. I have experienced the enforcement mode. I was shooting pool in a bar once when a drug bust went down. The fact that I didn't do drugs would not have mattered to the undercover officer pointing his Glock at my face, had I not done exactly as he said.
Mover
I've seen the same vids as you. I just ran them on a frame by frame until I had clear views of officers and the dog at various points in the videos. I ran my measurements off of the stills at that point. There's gonna be some room for error, but not too much. I think though, that the point is that the dog was not the size of your average Rottweiler, doberman, or even as large as a Pit Bull, which was my original point. If the dog were the size of one of the aforementioned, my reaction probably would have been different.
I've seen the same vids as you. I just ran them on a frame by frame until I had clear views of officers and the dog at various points in the videos. I ran my measurements off of the stills at that point. There's gonna be some room for error, but not too much. I think though, that the point is that the dog was not the size of your average Rottweiler, doberman, or even as large as a Pit Bull, which was my original point. If the dog were the size of one of the aforementioned, my reaction probably would have been different.
gun-fucious
Member
it seems to me that the situation went down hill,
when the innocent citizen surendered
the control of his family to the police.
Me wonders what would of happened,
if the driver refused to allow his family
to leave the safety of the family vehicle.
"I am innocent and we will wait IN here until you figure that out."
"If you need to escort us to the local police station, then we will follow."
when the innocent citizen surendered
the control of his family to the police.
Me wonders what would of happened,
if the driver refused to allow his family
to leave the safety of the family vehicle.
"I am innocent and we will wait IN here until you figure that out."
"If you need to escort us to the local police station, then we will follow."
Master Blaster
Member
Some folks are afraid of Dogs, Very affraid, the size does not matter.
Some of us look at their dogs as children who never grow up.
A person who does not fear/ or own a dog cannot imagine either of these perspectives.
My guess is that this officer feared dogs.
As far as stopping the Griswolds, the police had no evidence of a Felony in progress other than a lost wallet, and a cell phone call from a witness who only saw the wallet not a crime.
Excuse me sir did you lose your wallet? what is your name and birthday? Every thing OK, thanks have a good night.
That should have been the way the stop went down.
Too much adrenaline and testosterone, and too little common sense. resulted in this tragedy, it could have been worse.
Would the Officers on the board like this team to do a no knock raid at their house at 3:00 AM based on an annonymous cell phone caller who saw a man armed with a gun go in, or who claim that drugs were being sold at their house?
I think some retraining and re-evaluation of police procedure is needed here.
Some of us look at their dogs as children who never grow up.
A person who does not fear/ or own a dog cannot imagine either of these perspectives.
My guess is that this officer feared dogs.
As far as stopping the Griswolds, the police had no evidence of a Felony in progress other than a lost wallet, and a cell phone call from a witness who only saw the wallet not a crime.
Excuse me sir did you lose your wallet? what is your name and birthday? Every thing OK, thanks have a good night.
That should have been the way the stop went down.
Too much adrenaline and testosterone, and too little common sense. resulted in this tragedy, it could have been worse.
Would the Officers on the board like this team to do a no knock raid at their house at 3:00 AM based on an annonymous cell phone caller who saw a man armed with a gun go in, or who claim that drugs were being sold at their house?
I think some retraining and re-evaluation of police procedure is needed here.
Glockster35
Member
As a proud Dog owner (and cat, mouse, hamster etc), I will not place judgement on what occurred in this video. I don't know the facts and I wasn't there in this situation.
I also haven't read this entire thread to get the details. I only read 6-7 posts.
I will say that as someone in the LE community (military police) I have been faced with shooting dogs in the past. Haven't done it yet, but will not get bit by one either. If for one second I believed the canine was coming in for a bite, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot.
I for one don't trust other peoples dogs, never have never will. I believe that if your canine isn't trasined to the point that you can command it to stop, sit, laydown or drop, you are looking for problems.
I have heard it said that there are no such things as bad pets, just bad owners.
I also haven't read this entire thread to get the details. I only read 6-7 posts.
I will say that as someone in the LE community (military police) I have been faced with shooting dogs in the past. Haven't done it yet, but will not get bit by one either. If for one second I believed the canine was coming in for a bite, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot.
I for one don't trust other peoples dogs, never have never will. I believe that if your canine isn't trasined to the point that you can command it to stop, sit, laydown or drop, you are looking for problems.
I have heard it said that there are no such things as bad pets, just bad owners.
You guys are putting too much emphasis on the video when the real cause of this debacle happened on the phone. Between the 911 call and the dispatch centers who ramped this from a lost wallet report to a BOLO involved in a robbery, the felony stop procedures could only be expected.
Once the stop happened and Officer Hall became involved, his role as back-up forced the shoot. He might be afraid of dogs, he might own dogs, who knows. I do know that you aren't seeing everything that he saw and he didn't have the use of replay prior to making his decision.
Should things have gone down differently? Definitely. Would I have shot the dog? Nope, but dogs have never been a problem for me. Hell a big male Rottweiler crossed the street to check me out once when I was running. I just stopped and did the socially acceptable canine thing and he was fine. His owner about had a coronary when he saw his guard dog with me across the street from his business, but that was his problem.
Our problem is getting over the fact that this little dog wanted to play, and that's what got it killed. That and a chain of events that should never have occurred. Way back when that lady said 110 MPH ...
Once the stop happened and Officer Hall became involved, his role as back-up forced the shoot. He might be afraid of dogs, he might own dogs, who knows. I do know that you aren't seeing everything that he saw and he didn't have the use of replay prior to making his decision.
Should things have gone down differently? Definitely. Would I have shot the dog? Nope, but dogs have never been a problem for me. Hell a big male Rottweiler crossed the street to check me out once when I was running. I just stopped and did the socially acceptable canine thing and he was fine. His owner about had a coronary when he saw his guard dog with me across the street from his business, but that was his problem.
Our problem is getting over the fact that this little dog wanted to play, and that's what got it killed. That and a chain of events that should never have occurred. Way back when that lady said 110 MPH ...
Part of the problem here is "dog owners" versus otherwise.
I take my dog on trips across the country (we live in FLorida, and she's been as far as New Mexico, but we haven't had her that long). Stopping on the side of the road is a wonderful experience for a dog -- 5 minutes in new territory with new smells probably trumps a 30-minute walk in normal territory. We know this without having to think about it.
We can also tell from the body language of the dog that it was in happy/explore/play mode, and was entirely non-threatening. I wouldn't have had a problem with the dog at all. Even if it'd changed its mind and turned mean in an attempt to defend its owners, that would still have been a situation that's easy to defuse (small dog, big cop, mommy and daddy welling "no" and talking in motherese).
No biggie.
Did the cop know any of this? Unknown. Does that excuse his behavior? Nope.
What gets me is this:
What am I going to be charged with for killing a police dog? What are the potential penalties for that? Might I be charged with a crime in some states that's equivalent to slamming a ball-peen hammer into the temple of a human officer? Might my life be forfeit for killing "just a dog?"
This has got to go both ways. If my dog is property, then so are police dogs.
I take my dog on trips across the country (we live in FLorida, and she's been as far as New Mexico, but we haven't had her that long). Stopping on the side of the road is a wonderful experience for a dog -- 5 minutes in new territory with new smells probably trumps a 30-minute walk in normal territory. We know this without having to think about it.
We can also tell from the body language of the dog that it was in happy/explore/play mode, and was entirely non-threatening. I wouldn't have had a problem with the dog at all. Even if it'd changed its mind and turned mean in an attempt to defend its owners, that would still have been a situation that's easy to defuse (small dog, big cop, mommy and daddy welling "no" and talking in motherese).
No biggie.
Did the cop know any of this? Unknown. Does that excuse his behavior? Nope.
What gets me is this:
If the cops send a K9 unit after me for whatever reason and I knock it on the head with a ball-peen hammer to kill it, is that "just a dog?"
What am I going to be charged with for killing a police dog? What are the potential penalties for that? Might I be charged with a crime in some states that's equivalent to slamming a ball-peen hammer into the temple of a human officer? Might my life be forfeit for killing "just a dog?"
This has got to go both ways. If my dog is property, then so are police dogs.
Excellent point Derek! I know in some states that an assault on an officer bears no distinction between K9 or human. As a matter of fact, wasn't there recently a case where a criminal was sentenced to hard time for shooting a K9?
So, tables turned, if a K9 gets away from his handler and comes trotting towards me, I suppose I'm allowed to pull my concealed weapon and blow the K9s head off without repurcussion? After all, these dogs have been trained to attack and most are rather large intimidating dogs.
answerguy
Member
And just when were the dog's owners supposed to give a 'sit' command to their dog?
While they were spread eagled on the shoulder of the road with multiple LEOs yelling commands at them? I'm sure Mr Smoak's main concern about the car door being open is that he was afraid the dog would get out in traffic. How could he have envisioned that the cops would snuff his pet right in front of his eyes?
While they were spread eagled on the shoulder of the road with multiple LEOs yelling commands at them? I'm sure Mr Smoak's main concern about the car door being open is that he was afraid the dog would get out in traffic. How could he have envisioned that the cops would snuff his pet right in front of his eyes?
To further Derek's point. Interesting dichotomy regarding the sentiments. Cop shoots persons pet, oh well. Person shoots cop's pet, charges, memorials, eulogies, bands play, etc. What a vivid display of the differing mindsets... as well as the similarities in how people feel about pets. It's a helluva lot different when it's your own.
K9 memorial site
According to this behavior, the Smoaks dog, if attacking, was protecting it's master and due the honor of a 21 gun salute, a formal memorial replete with weeping handlers, a commendation for valor, and a full formal burial in an annointed place of rest.
K9 memorial site
According to this behavior, the Smoaks dog, if attacking, was protecting it's master and due the honor of a 21 gun salute, a formal memorial replete with weeping handlers, a commendation for valor, and a full formal burial in an annointed place of rest.
TheeBadOne
Member
Looks like Hollywood again. All the cops who use to use this approach are D E A D, as in no longer breathing. Looks like someone has a nice view of the earth from space...
"Jack-booted thug" would be a compliment to these scumbags. First they pull a felony car stop on a family over a worthless, unsupported, anonymous tip, then they ignore all evidence that the family are NOT a couple robbers, then they refuse to contian the dog by closing the car doors, then they kill the family pet. Slime. If karma exists, that cop's pet dog will get run over by a cement truck, with the driver slowing down only long enough to laugh at the cop as he goes by.
When you consider the legal distinctions between a police attack dog and a family pet, the situation only becomes more disgusting.
When you consider the legal distinctions between a police attack dog and a family pet, the situation only becomes more disgusting.
FNHP35
Member
While I am not sure that this was an entirely justified shooting, I still do not see this as something to get too worked up over. A dog is not the same, in any case, as a person, not even legally (not even a K-9 “officerâ€). You can’t get the death penalty for killing a dog, not in any state I know of. There isn’t any murder statute that I know of that covers dogs, and for sure not in my state. Also, a K-9 dog is much more an extension of the officer than this dog ever was. They have the laws covering assault of the K-9’s to protect the officers, since it the dogs are out there protecting the human police officers. If you ram a police car you will get nailed for assaulting a police officer, but does that mean a car holds the same value as a person? I think not.
Next issue I have is with the idea that just because the dog is wagging its tail it’s friendly. That is not the case. A dog that is excited wags its tail. A scared dog won’t, but if he or she is excited it might, and that doesn’t mean he or she is all that interested in playing.
Next issue, yes, it does seem that the officer that shot the dog did not know how to handle a dog well at all. It would have been wiser for him to kick the dog, but at the same time, he had a shotgun and in his mind he probably was trying to deescalate the situation and back away. He moved back a good distance, and even changed direction to move out of the dog’s way. Of course that didn’t work, because the dog probably just wanted to see the officer. But to give the dog a butt stroke with the shotgun is a goofy, dangerous, and dumb idea. He would almost certainly have had to sweep the other people with the muzzle and certainly himself to hit the dog. To get OC spray out is a rather difficult option for him, since he has a shotgun. Same with a baton. Kicking the dog would be the wisest course of action, but at the same time, with a shotgun was pointed at the dog the entire time, not really giving him the leverage, or a safe way to kick the dog. The officer was handling the dog like he would a person (by covering him) and if that dog had been a person (full grown), that would be been a justifiable shooting.
As for the stop, it looked clean to me. Yes, the didn’t look like your average armed robbers, but then, why would you be profiling a person like that? You, as the police officer getting the call, are told that these people are possible armed robbers. I, as any person that has any idea of safety and protocol would go into high risk traffic stop mode, which these officers did. Should they have left the door open? They probably should have closed it. but at the same time, this was a high risk traffic stop with lots of things in the car, I might, as an officer on scene want the doors open so that I could have a better view, and feeling of what’s going on inside of the car. That is the SOP of a high risk stop. Someone said he was proned out. It actually looks like, and I could be wrong, that he’s actually kneeling, I don’t see how they handled the people badly at all. They weren’t rough housed, or hurt in anyway until the man jumped up. They were spoken to in a polite manner, and weren’t accused. Looks like they handled the people very well. Whether the BOLO should have been given out, I don’t know, I don’t know the entire story on that.
I like my dog, and wouldn’t want anyone to shoot her, but in that circumstance, I could understand why a person would do that. I wouldn’t, but I most likely have a better understanding of how dogs work than this officer did. Does that mean this officer is a terrible jack-booted thug? No, I dare say he’s not. He’s probably just inexperienced with dogs. Does this mean he should be fired? I don’t believe so, dogs are still property in this country, and should remain that way. Should the family be compensated for the loss? Yes, I think it would be a good idea to pay the family for the dog, but sadly, I don’t think they should recover any punitive damages. Though, admittedly, that’s just my gut feeling of how this should end. Somehow I doubt that they will get anything, not in court at least. I feel sorry for the family, it’s a bummer of a situation. This is not anything close to shooting a person, and remember there have been justifiable homicides where the officer thought he was in danger, but in reality was not.
Andrew
Next issue I have is with the idea that just because the dog is wagging its tail it’s friendly. That is not the case. A dog that is excited wags its tail. A scared dog won’t, but if he or she is excited it might, and that doesn’t mean he or she is all that interested in playing.
Next issue, yes, it does seem that the officer that shot the dog did not know how to handle a dog well at all. It would have been wiser for him to kick the dog, but at the same time, he had a shotgun and in his mind he probably was trying to deescalate the situation and back away. He moved back a good distance, and even changed direction to move out of the dog’s way. Of course that didn’t work, because the dog probably just wanted to see the officer. But to give the dog a butt stroke with the shotgun is a goofy, dangerous, and dumb idea. He would almost certainly have had to sweep the other people with the muzzle and certainly himself to hit the dog. To get OC spray out is a rather difficult option for him, since he has a shotgun. Same with a baton. Kicking the dog would be the wisest course of action, but at the same time, with a shotgun was pointed at the dog the entire time, not really giving him the leverage, or a safe way to kick the dog. The officer was handling the dog like he would a person (by covering him) and if that dog had been a person (full grown), that would be been a justifiable shooting.
As for the stop, it looked clean to me. Yes, the didn’t look like your average armed robbers, but then, why would you be profiling a person like that? You, as the police officer getting the call, are told that these people are possible armed robbers. I, as any person that has any idea of safety and protocol would go into high risk traffic stop mode, which these officers did. Should they have left the door open? They probably should have closed it. but at the same time, this was a high risk traffic stop with lots of things in the car, I might, as an officer on scene want the doors open so that I could have a better view, and feeling of what’s going on inside of the car. That is the SOP of a high risk stop. Someone said he was proned out. It actually looks like, and I could be wrong, that he’s actually kneeling, I don’t see how they handled the people badly at all. They weren’t rough housed, or hurt in anyway until the man jumped up. They were spoken to in a polite manner, and weren’t accused. Looks like they handled the people very well. Whether the BOLO should have been given out, I don’t know, I don’t know the entire story on that.
I like my dog, and wouldn’t want anyone to shoot her, but in that circumstance, I could understand why a person would do that. I wouldn’t, but I most likely have a better understanding of how dogs work than this officer did. Does that mean this officer is a terrible jack-booted thug? No, I dare say he’s not. He’s probably just inexperienced with dogs. Does this mean he should be fired? I don’t believe so, dogs are still property in this country, and should remain that way. Should the family be compensated for the loss? Yes, I think it would be a good idea to pay the family for the dog, but sadly, I don’t think they should recover any punitive damages. Though, admittedly, that’s just my gut feeling of how this should end. Somehow I doubt that they will get anything, not in court at least. I feel sorry for the family, it’s a bummer of a situation. This is not anything close to shooting a person, and remember there have been justifiable homicides where the officer thought he was in danger, but in reality was not.
Andrew
.45TCB
Member
Here's my reasoning for why I think the officer was NOT justified in firing his weapon: As others have stated in this thread, people deal with barking, sometimes menacing dogs everyday: mailmen, meter readers, deliverymen, etc. That these people complete their tasks without killing the animals tells us that there are other ways to deal with this perceived threat. IMO, the officer used poor judgement in choosing the most violent way possible to deal with a problem that does not appear to place him in imminent jeopardy.
And there have been shootings ruled "justified", which clearly were not. Recently an FBI agent pulled over a car while looking for a robbery suspect. The driver was shot when he moved to unbuckle his seat belt after being ordered to exit the vehicle. The shooting was ruled "justified", but IMO that individual does not have the temperment or the judgement that we should expect of law enforcement officers. I place the Cookeville officer, despite the differences in circumstances between these two incidents, in the same category.
Sergeant Bob
Member
Honest Chief....that Chihuahua looked like he wanted to KILL ME!!! Hahahahahahahaha!!! Hoohoohoohoohoo!!! ROFLMAO!!!! OMGITIGB!!!
DeltaElite
Member
On the theory that an animal may be diseased and cause harm to an officer, then we should be shooting any human that becomes aggressive due to the diseases that humans carry.
I had a buddy get bit by a cat on duty, he spent 3 days in ICU with a blood infection.
Assuming that all animals are diseased and therefore can be shot, would require the same rationale against humans.
I know the dogs in my patrol turf are healthier than the addicts and hookers I deal with.
Hmmmmmmmmm, what to do, what to do....
I had a buddy get bit by a cat on duty, he spent 3 days in ICU with a blood infection.
Assuming that all animals are diseased and therefore can be shot, would require the same rationale against humans.
I know the dogs in my patrol turf are healthier than the addicts and hookers I deal with.
Hmmmmmmmmm, what to do, what to do....
WonderNine
member
The thing I don't understand is, didn't the dog even run by a couple of people (at least one other cop) before it even ran towards Shotgun George? Geez, it just looked like a little dog running around playing.
That cop looks what, at least 190lbs and 6' or so. If the little dog even tried to attack him he could have just kicked the dogs @$$ across the ditch if it didn't respond to voice commands.
But no we got BLAM!!!!
That cop looks what, at least 190lbs and 6' or so. If the little dog even tried to attack him he could have just kicked the dogs @$$ across the ditch if it didn't respond to voice commands.
But no we got BLAM!!!!
faustulus
Member
I can't wait till the nice people of Tennessee get the bill for this dog.
Preacherman
Member
Friends, as I've posted in other threads on this subject, it's been beaten to death by now. We have no new facts to go by, other than the TV footage. The matter is now in the hands of the legal system, and judging by the truly massive nationwide publicity this incident has generated, I don't think anyone's going to be able to sweep anything under the carpet to avoid scrutiny. Let's not indulge in "trial by media", let's try to generate more light than heat, and let's give the legal system time to do its job without endless (and pointless) speculation.
Thread closed.
Thread closed.
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