Ferrous metal in bullets ?

[leVieux]

As a teacher of brain & spine diagnosis to young physicians and as a clinical physician on the faculty of a large urban trauma center, I and colleagues are often faced with the question of whether a projectile contains ferrous metal; if so, would it be safe to place a person with that projectile into a high-field MRI unit, say of a nominal 3-Tesla field strength.

We know about waterfowl shot and hunting arrows, both of which are fairly easily recognizable on X-rays. We have also heard all sorts of stories about foreign bullets containing Iron. That said, our section, with almost 100 years combined in this field, have never actually seen an Iron-containing bullet.

I am asking whether anyone on board actually has an Iron-containing bullet; and, if so, how common is it to encounter them. Also, not cartridge cases, just bullets. We are aware of the use of Iron-containing & steel cases.

We are faced with making important health care decisions on behalf of seriously injured folks, many innocent victims or bystanders, who have been shot, mostly with common caliber handguns or rifles.

This post is an attempt to discern what this level of risk really is. We are forced to make potentially dangerous decisions all of the time, and realize that the RELATIVE dangers of our choices are what is important.

So, please tell me if anyone actually HAS one or more of those "mythical" Iron-containing bullets. No need to melt one, just test with a magnet, please, and post here.

Please, no "anecdotes"; we have zillions of "My brother's buddy had some back in '78" stories.

Thanks to all,

leVieux
New Orleans

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

Lots of the armor piercing stuff uses a hardened steel penetrator. I would imagine you would see a complete pass through if you shot a human with something like that; unless it is a high velocity round like a .223. Lots of the ammo from Russia contains magnetic material. Wolf, brown bear, wolf military classic, and even the winchester in 7.62x54R (which I think uses overseas projectiles). I only know this because the local range does not allow ANY magnetic ammo and some of the brands one would think are acceptable are not.

 

[cthulhufan]

I have thousands of surplus steel core 7.62x54R, both the case and the bullet will stick to a magnet. This has to be one of the most prolific calibers in steel core, not sure if the 7.62x39 folks are still getting a lot of steel core surplus but 54R is still being produced with it.

Order yourself a batch of them here if you'd like to check it out for yourself:
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produ...-russian-military-ammo/cName/762x54r-fmj-ammo

 

[DasFriek]

Bullets containing steel cores are very common in low cost surplus and imported Russian ammo. These mainly being FMJ= full metal jackets and they will not deform very much if looked at with an x-ray, So they should be easy to see if they are lead cored or steel cored that way if time allowed.
These come in rifle and handgun ammo.
I doubt you will see many of these in a victim due to the fact they DON'T deform as they usually will pass right threw a body since they don't expand.

I would think it would be easier to look at the facts of the wound than to guess by the type of situation the person was shot.
If it was a ricochet or a bystander in a shooting the probability of the use of steel cored ammo may be used as if the bullet hit something else first and slowed it down it wouldn't have the power to go fully threw a body.
Even gang bangers and bad guys know Hollow points are more effective in a shooting and will use them in most handguns. And even then only the cheapest of ammo either handgun or rifle is steel cored as most indoor gun ranges wont allow its use as it penetrates so much it will ricochet and be hard to stop.

In summery as i know i jumped around.
This is just my opinion, If a bullet doesn't exit its most likely lead cored.
A steel cored bullet will most likely pass threw a body.
If time allows an X-ray would tell you quickly as a steel cored bullet wont deform like lead.
Rifle wounds imo have a higher chance of being steel cored, But i doubt you will see one stuck in a body that didn't pass threw.

 

[M2 Carbine]

So, please tell me if anyone actually HAS one or more of those "mythical" Iron-containing bullets. No need to melt one, just test with a magnet, please, and post here.

Offhand I know that much of the foreign Makarov (9x18) bullets use steel (iron?) jackets.
Other foreign ammo, with steel jacket bullets, is also plentiful.
Silver Bear 120 grain 9x18 ammo.

We are faced with making important health care decisions on behalf of seriously injured folks, many innocent victims or bystanders, who have been shot, mostly with common caliber handguns or rifles

What exactly is the problem of an "iron" bullet over a conventional lead/copper bullet?

 

[bigfatdave]

I am asking whether anyone on board actually has an Iron-containing bullet; and, if so, how common is it to encounter them.

I have hundreds in 7.62x25 Tokarev
Steel jackets aren't that uncommon in surplus Chinese/Soviet-type stuff, in the case of Tok the bullet weighs in at ~5.8grams or 90 grains ... and not all of that would be steel, if that matters.
I've never attempted to dissect the actual bullet and I've never managed to recover one to see what's left of it after hitting a backstop or reactive target. If I ever have a dud with the stuff I'll pull the bullet and we can see if it is steel jacket or steel core or what.

From Wiki regarding Wolf ammo (current prodiction, I think):
Steel-jacketed bullets
Not only the cases of Wolf rifle ammo are steel. Most of Wolf's rifle cartridges use steel jacketed bullets, though they look like copper jacketed. The copper exterior of the bullet is only about .005 inch thick, (about twice the thickness of a sheet of paper) with a steel jacket underneath about 1/32 inch thick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition#Steel-jacketed_bullets

 

[CYANIDEGENOCIDE]

From the op

would it be safe to place a person with that projectile into a high-field MDI unit, say of a nominal 3-Tesla field strength.

MRI machines makes bad things happen to bodies that contain magnetic material. Imagine the bullet being pulled back out of the of the body. Unless it is close to the surface this probably wouldn't happen because the bullet would have such a low saturation point. The flip side is bullet wounds don't usually get MRI unless it is close to a major blood vessel or the like, and the MRI machine could move the bullet the minor distance which would create major problems.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

What exactly is the problem of an "iron" bullet over over a conventional lead/copper bullet?

I would imagine the answer to that would be if the victim was put in an MRI with any sort of Ferrous Metal inside.

You also have to remember there is a LOT of steel shot for shotguns out there to think about as well.

 

[ArmedLiberal]

No myth. I have military surplus ammunition for my M1 Garand that was manufactured in Greece; the bullet attracts a magnet. Also, milsurp ammo for the AK47 semi-auto clones is very common and generally attracts a magnet. WW2 surplus Soviet bolt action Mosin-Nagant rifles are imported into the US by the hundreds of thousands and sold for $100/$150 each. Cheap 7.62x54R milsurp ammo for the Mosins comes from vast stockpiles of former Warsaw Pact nations that are selling their obsolete military equipment.

Also, the 5.56 Nato used in the very common AR15 clones has steel core varieties. Look for M855.

I'm sure there are lots of examples of rifle bullets that have steel cores and/or steel jackets.

I'd guess that ammo used for hunting or high quality non-surplus ammo would generally not have steel in the bullets.

I'm not aware of any handgun ammunition that has steel in the bullets. There are many folks at THR who have more knowledge and experience than I do and may be along shortly to expand on this. Ooops, oh yeah Eastern European milsurp handgun ammo!


Google "this ammo attracts a magnet", "steel core ammo", "steel core bullets", "military surplus ammunition", "milsurp ammo", etc., etc., etc.

Here's an one of countless examples of Eastern European military surplus ammunition with "a mild steel core." http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/11216


http://firearmsid.com/Bullets/bullet1.htm

"The most common jacketed bullet core material is lead but exceptions again exist and a common example is the 7.62x39mm armor piercing bullet (show above right). This bullet has a steel jacket over a thin layer of lead which surrounds a steel core. It is not uncommon for firearm examiners to receive just the steel core as an exhibit. When this bullet strikes a target the steel core can punch right through the nose of the jacket material. I had a case several years ago where several of these bullets were fired through the windshield of a car, killing the lone occupant. All that was recovered from the victim were several steel bullet cores like those seen below."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62x39mm

"The original Soviet M43 bullets are boat-tail bullets with a copper-plated steel jacket, a large steel core, and some lead between the core and the jacket."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

"M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round and its environmentally friendly projectile.
June 2010, the United States Army announced it began shipping its new 5.56mm cartridge, the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, to active combat zones. During testing, the M855A1 performed better than current 7.62x51mm NATO ball ammunition against certain types of targets (particularly hardened steel), blurring the performance differences that previously separated the two cartridges. The US Army Picatinny Arsenal stated that the new M855A1 offers improved hard target capability, more consistent performance at all distances, enhanced dependability, improved accuracy, reduced muzzle flash, and higher velocity compared to the M855 round. Further the Army stated the new M855A1 ammunition is tailored for use in M4 carbines but should also give enhanced performance in M16 rifles and M249 light machine guns. The new 62-grain (4 g) projectile or bullet used in the M855A1 round has a copper core with a 19-grain (1.2 g) steel “stacked-cone” penetrating tip. The M855A1 cartridge is sometimes referred to as "green ammo" because it fires a lead free projectile."

 

[M2 Carbine]

I would imagine the answer to that would be if the victim was put in an MRI with any sort of Ferrous Metal inside.

I hadn't thought about that.

 

[hapidogbreath]

Lots of the pulled 7.62 150 Gr. is steel jacket washed/plated copper.

 

[jerkface11]

Doesn't Swiss GP11 have a ferrous jacket?

 

[Carne Frio]

The MRIs don't pull a bullet from a body as much as cause the
ferromagnetic objects to twist and torque as the patient is put
into the magnet. I have seen small bits of shrapnel heat up,
inside of a patient's arm, when the RF was turned on. This
was on an older 1.5T magnet.

 

[Ramirez19]

As a teacher of brain & spine diagnosis to young physicians and as a clinical physician on the faculty of a large urban trauma center, I and colleagues are often faced with the question of whether a projectile contains ferrous metal; if so, would it be safe to place a person with that projectile into a high-field MDI unit, say of a nominal 3-Tesla field strength.

What kind of physician are you? I presume you mean MRI, not MDI.

Regardless of how many anecdotes of ferromagnetic projectiles exist on this or any forum, you will still be forced to make medical decisions based upon a risk:benefit ratio for a given patient. You're going to get a head CT before a brain MRI, and likely a spine CT before a spine MRI. Most projectiles in the commonly used calibers in shootings (e.g. 9x19 mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .380 ACP, .22 LR, etc.) are not going to be ferromagnetic. That said, clearly not all will not be ferromagnetic. The location of the bullet is also key to the risk involved.

Can you outline an example in which this is a large diagnostic dilemma for you? CT should answer most questions about the projectile's location and proximity to vital tissues and organs.

 

[jakk280rem]

i have a box of sellier & bellot 158gr fmj 357mag with steel in the bullet.

 

[leVieux]

Thanks to you all. And, I did correct the typo.

We are Neuroradiologists at LSU Interim Hospital, which serves as the temporary replacement for the much larger Charity Hospital of (Louisiana) (at) New Orleans.

To date, the three of us have seen all sorts of GSW's; civilian & military, and have never seen an Iron-containing bullet in a person w/ a GSW.

These folks mostly have bullets in their head, face, or spine. Some of our neurosurgeons are afraid to put patients with bullets into our 1.5 & 3.0 Tesla magnets.

Of course, we have been aware of heating, induced electrical currents, etc. BUT feel that the tiny risk of what looks on X-ray to be a Lead bullet actually containing sufficient Iron to cause additional injury is relatively small, compared to the value of the life-saving information we & our surgeons need.

We see so many GSW's that the US Army sends some of their medical officers here for training. And, we are seeing more & more AK wounds from the gang-bangers & dope dealers than ever before.

Again, thanks to all of you who provided non-anecdotal information. You have helped us in our decision-making; and, therefore, with improved patient care.

leVieux

 

[leVieux]

As we are in the middle of a big duck & goose hunting area, we know a lot about steel shot and can easily distinguish it on the X-rays.

 

[kingpin008]

I have seen small bits of shrapnel heat up,
inside of a patient's arm.

Little known fact: Some brands of tattoo inks (mostly older, but some of the modern stuff too) use ferrous metal-based pigment for some of their colors - usually dark reds and black. In some cases, the pigment content is high enough that it can cause problems in MRI machines.

I first found this out when I tore my ACL a few years back. Went in for the scan, checked all the "no" boxes asking about bullets, shrapnel, etc. Laid down, they started the scan, and about ten minutes in my left calf started to feel like I had a really bad sunburn. I alerted the technician, and they stopped the machine. The burning went away. Resumed the scan, the burning came back.

They pulled me out and asked me to describe where the burning sensation was occurring. I pointed to my calf, which is mostly covered with a VERY large tattoo, consisting of multiple shades of red and grey, with a thick black outline.

Since then, I've had the chance to educate a few techs about the possibility of certain tattoo inks to react with scanners. It doesn't seem to cause any actual damage, but it sure ain't the most comfortable thing to have to deal with when you're supposed to be laying perfectly still. :banghead:

 

[KosmicKrunch]

I was wounded in 1991 in D-Storm and still have copper and what ever in my thigh and leg. I cannot get MRIs because even lead, copper and other alloys have some traces of magnetic metals in them. If I were to go into a MRI, the magnet is so strong that the second they turn the machine on, the magnet will pull it all out of my leg and most likely destroy the MRI machine due to the velocity it travels via the magnets strength. They usually give me low grade x-rays and yes the metals do heat up a little when x-rayed.

 

[ArmedLiberal]

Thanks to you all. And, I did correct the typo.

We are Neuroradiologists at LSU Interim Hospital, which serves as the temporary replacement for the much larger Charity Hospital of (Louisiana) (at) New Orleans.

To date, the three of us have seen all sorts of GSW's; civilian & military, and have never seen an Iron-containing bullet in a person w/ a GSW.

These folks mostly have bullets in their head, face, or spine. Some of our neurosurgeons are afraid to put patients with bullets into our 1.5 & 3.0 Tesla magnets.

Of course, we have been aware of heating, induced electrical currents, etc. BUT feel that the tiny risk of what looks on X-ray to be a Lead bullet actually containing sufficient Iron to cause additional injury is relatively small, compared to the value of the life-saving information we & our surgeons need.

We see so many GSW's that the US Army sends some of their medical officers here for training. And, we are seeing more & more AK wounds from the gang-bangers & dope dealers than ever before.

Again, thanks to all of you who provided non-anecdotal information. You have helped us in our decision-making; and, therefore, with improved patient care.

leVieux

How do you know that all of the bullets/fragments you have seen were non-ferrous? I would have thought that many military wounds would be caused by steel jacketed or cored bullets.

Is it possible to transfer your expertise in differentiating lead from steel shot to bullets/fragments?

How much force is exerted on a ferrous bullet/fragment by a 3.0 Tesla field? Maybe some research with animal carcasses would be useful. Are there documented cases of patients being harmed by MRIs in the presence of imbedded ferrous materials? Or is this just a theoretical danger?

Is it possible to develop a sort of "mini-metal finder" that would sense the presence of steel in a human body? Is it possible to tell the difference between steel and copper and lead with a metal finder?

 

[Army]

I was wounded in 1991 in D-Storm and still have copper and what ever in my thigh and leg. I cannot get MRIs because even lead, copper and other alloys have some traces of magnetic metals in them. If I were to go into a MRI, the magnet is so strong that the second they turn the machine on, the magnet will pull it all out of my leg and most likely destroy the MRI machine due to the velocity it travels via the magnets strength. They usually give me low grade x-rays and yes the metals do heat up a little when x-rayed.

Huh? The worlds most advanced MRI machine, is housed in a copper room. According to you, the room would collapse at lightning speed.

Pacemakers with copper coils, are safe in an MRI. Copper wire IUD's are safe in an MRI. Cobalt, titanium, lead, aluminum, gold, and many stainless steels are also safe in an MRI, even a 3 Tesla. Your copper frag is safe in a MRI.

Now, if your frag is old steel jacket with a copper wash, that's different But it's not the copper you need to worry of.

Also, they will not rip out of your body, and would not obtain any speed for their mass to do any damage to the machine if they did.

Oh. X-rays do not react with metals other than make them more visible. They certainly cannot absorb x-rays and heat up.

I call shenanigans on your post.

 

[mustang_steve]

RWS 9mm NATO FMJ ammo (the wal-mart type) has a copper-plated steel jacket.

Proof? Go stick a magnet up to one, there you go.

 

[hirundo82]

Bullets containing steel cores are very common in low cost surplus and imported Russian ammo. These mainly being FMJ= full metal jackets and they will not deform very much if looked at with an x-ray, So they should be easy to see if they are lead cored or steel cored that way if time allowed.
These come in rifle and handgun ammo.

Steel core rifle ammo is common among military surplus ammo. Steel core handgun ammo is illegal to import or for us mere mortals to possess, and thus is unlikely to be encountered in a US city. As others have said, handgun ammo with a ferromagnetic jacket may be encountered.

 

[zxcvbob]

A lot of commie pistol ammo has mild steel jackets instead of copper. I have a bunch of surplus 7.62 Tokarev ammo from different countries all with steel jackets. I would not be surprised if 9mm Makarov and some Western calibers like 9mm NATO and .380 Auto also sometimes have steel jackets.

So ferrous handgun bullet jackets are unusual, but not *that* unusual. Ferrous handgun bullet cores should be rare enough to dismiss unless you had some specific reason to suspect that it was magnetic. (can you tell with a handheld magnetometer?)

 

[ants]

Ferrous metal in bullets -- Not the most common, but it is out there.

leVieux.

PM me your address. I'll send you bullet samples (not loaded ammunition, just the projectile). I have some 30 caliber on hand, maybe some 223. And perhaps other THR members can send more.

If you and your colleagues can assemble a large collection, perhaps you can use them in both x-ray and imaging tests to see if you can discover identifying telltale characteristics.

ants