I purchased a Cap and ball 44 from Cabellas. In all that I have read, I should use fffg and about 30 grains so I bought a CVA brass flask with a 30 grain spout. I also purchased Pyrodex pistol powder. Just for kicks, I weighed the load in the spout and it wasn't even close to 30 grains. Closer to 20. So I used my small 20-120 grain measurer and had to go to nearly 40 grains on the slide scale before I got close to 30 grains on the scale (an old balance type scale). So I tried my ffg Goetex powder in the flask and it was a lot closer to 30 grains. So is it that the Pyrodex fffg is ground smaller and therefore has more volume or am I missing something?
ffg vrs fffg. volume vrs weight?
- Thread starter bigboat
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Sagetown
Member
bigboat: All Black Powders and their substitutes are measured in Volume, not weight. And no two will weigh out exactly the same. By volume, 30 grains is 30 grains. No matter what the ' f ' configuration. Kind of like filling an 8 oz. glass. No matter what ingredient goes into it, it can only hold so much before it runs over. If its full of oil, it will weigh LESS than if it's full of water, but it's still just 8 oz.
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Ginormous
Member
There, fixed it.
Pancho
Member
The real historians on this forum could answer with better authority but my guess is that way back when it was realized that for someone to measure out a charge by weight out in the wilderness was impossible. To create a mythological relationship between weight and volume was much more practical
scrat
Member
Ignore what kanook wrote
Black powder and substitues are measured by volume not weight. With this in mind the substitues may be lighter in weight depending on what is in them and how they are made. With this in mind the granulations maybe smaller or a tad bigger to make themselves equivilant with black powder. The only powder that is not equivalent is 777. due to this they recomend to reduce your load by 15%.
Now lets look at that again. by volume if you fill up a 1 gallon jug with water and take another 1 gallon jug of oil. The water will weigh more. Water is heavier than oil.
Now with that out of the way. just because one may weigh more than the other does not mean anything. THROW away your weight scale when meausuring black powder and black powder substitute. Black powder is only measure by a volumetric scale. Thus by using a black powder measure you will get the proper amount of powder. Regardless. ONly use your black powder measure. now if you have a difference between the black powder measure and the 30 grain black powder spout. thats a different story. if that is the case then the only proper way to determine which is correct is to use another black powder measure that is properly calibrated for black powder volume
Black powder and substitues are measured by volume not weight. With this in mind the substitues may be lighter in weight depending on what is in them and how they are made. With this in mind the granulations maybe smaller or a tad bigger to make themselves equivilant with black powder. The only powder that is not equivalent is 777. due to this they recomend to reduce your load by 15%.
Now lets look at that again. by volume if you fill up a 1 gallon jug with water and take another 1 gallon jug of oil. The water will weigh more. Water is heavier than oil.
Now with that out of the way. just because one may weigh more than the other does not mean anything. THROW away your weight scale when meausuring black powder and black powder substitute. Black powder is only measure by a volumetric scale. Thus by using a black powder measure you will get the proper amount of powder. Regardless. ONly use your black powder measure. now if you have a difference between the black powder measure and the 30 grain black powder spout. thats a different story. if that is the case then the only proper way to determine which is correct is to use another black powder measure that is properly calibrated for black powder volume
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arcticap
Member
When you weighed the 30 grains of Pyrodex by volume, you learned what it weighed and that it weighs less than 30 grains of volume of black powder.
According to the conversion chart #1 linked below, 30 grains of volume of black powder ffg equals ~20.5 grains of weight of Pyrodex RS.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
The grain weight of ffg black powder roughly equals it's volume in grains and as others have said, substitute powders only equal black powder when measured by volume.
Use the conversion chart or your scale to determine the weight for any equal volume of Pyrodex like you've already done if you want to load by weight.
Pyrodex P & fffg is supposed to have about a 10% difference in volume than Pyrodex RS & ffg, i.e. - 90 grains of Pyrodex P equals 100 grains of RS or ffg by volume. That isn't a very significant amount in pistol loads but it's good to know.
According to the conversion chart #1 linked below, 30 grains of volume of black powder ffg equals ~20.5 grains of weight of Pyrodex RS.
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
The grain weight of ffg black powder roughly equals it's volume in grains and as others have said, substitute powders only equal black powder when measured by volume.
Use the conversion chart or your scale to determine the weight for any equal volume of Pyrodex like you've already done if you want to load by weight.
Pyrodex P & fffg is supposed to have about a 10% difference in volume than Pyrodex RS & ffg, i.e. - 90 grains of Pyrodex P equals 100 grains of RS or ffg by volume. That isn't a very significant amount in pistol loads but it's good to know.
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madcratebuilder
Member
Reduce 777 by 15% as per manufacturer.
Sagetown
Member
Thanks Ginormous: I knew one of you guys would catch that weight difference since oil floats on water ~
kanook
Member
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- Feb 27, 2009
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- 2,004
so if you take a visual and think thats what you need instead of weighing it and making sure that it is correct NOTHING will go wrong. and yes i know that ALL powders are measured and have different weight. that is why the reloading manual has different powder charges to get the same effect. so by all means use 30 grains of bullseye and it will be fine accoding to what i have been informed on this posting. (read manual and do not use my loading data)
Ginormous
Member
Strike two!
Two wrongs still don't make a right. And your advice is still dangerously wrong.
Two wrongs still don't make a right. And your advice is still dangerously wrong.
My Recipie for BP:
1. Flame suit on
2. Load as much as the clyinder will accept.
3. Lube pill.
4. Ball.
5. Next.
6. Caps.
7. Shoot.
8. Repeat.
Mileage will wary...
I shoot the 1858, 1860 Colt, and Walker only.
Warning: Please do not load a rifle to the brim. I am not responsible for that or anything you might do.
1. Flame suit on
2. Load as much as the clyinder will accept.
3. Lube pill.
4. Ball.
5. Next.
6. Caps.
7. Shoot.
8. Repeat.
Mileage will wary...
I shoot the 1858, 1860 Colt, and Walker only.
Warning: Please do not load a rifle to the brim. I am not responsible for that or anything you might do.
scrat
Member
kanook your talking about smokeless powder. there is a huge difference smokeless to black powder. Smokeless powder should be weighted. Black powder is volumetric and should be eye balled. You use a volumetric measuring device and fill up to the top level. eye ball is totally fine. as for the manual. i am all against the manual. when you look at the manual for pietta what they tell you is totally different than what is actually used. Same time manuals do not always tell you the same thing for blackpowder versus smokeless. if i look at goex, or any other manual they will give me a recomended load for a .44. however why on earth would i want to use that in a .44 walker. Different guns will hold different amounts of powder. Same time what we discussed here before you can not overload a cap and ball revolver. only revolver that should use small loads are brass frame revolvers. a lot of this comes from experience. maybe you should spend some time reading black powder essentials the first post.
scrat
Member
here is your reload data this comes from lymans black powder handbook.
http://www.reloadammo.com/relblac2.htm
now how does this work for my walker.
=================================================
45 Cal. Pistol with 7 1/2" bbl.
-------------------------------------------------
.457 Round Ball, 143 grains, no patch, G-O powder
FFFg FFFFg
31 gr. 858 fps 964 fps
40 gr. 917* 1036* Maximum
-------------------------------------------------
.454 #45468 bullet, 185 grains, no patch,
Lyman #45468 lubed bullet, G-O powder
FFFg FFFFg
25.5 gr. 717 fps 860 fps
34.0 gr. 813* 905* MAXIMUM
-------------------------------------------------
.457 Round Ball, 143 grains, no patch, C&H powder
FFFg FFFFg
31 gr. 766 fps 911 fps
40 gr. 772* 1005* Maximum
-------------------------------------------------
.454 #45468 bullet, 185 grains, no patch,
Lyman #45468 lubed bullet, C&H powder
FFFg FFFFg
26 gr. 660 fps 778 fps
34 gr. 701* 885* MAXIMUM
=================================================
http://www.reloadammo.com/relblac2.htm
now how does this work for my walker.
=================================================
45 Cal. Pistol with 7 1/2" bbl.
-------------------------------------------------
.457 Round Ball, 143 grains, no patch, G-O powder
FFFg FFFFg
31 gr. 858 fps 964 fps
40 gr. 917* 1036* Maximum
-------------------------------------------------
.454 #45468 bullet, 185 grains, no patch,
Lyman #45468 lubed bullet, G-O powder
FFFg FFFFg
25.5 gr. 717 fps 860 fps
34.0 gr. 813* 905* MAXIMUM
-------------------------------------------------
.457 Round Ball, 143 grains, no patch, C&H powder
FFFg FFFFg
31 gr. 766 fps 911 fps
40 gr. 772* 1005* Maximum
-------------------------------------------------
.454 #45468 bullet, 185 grains, no patch,
Lyman #45468 lubed bullet, C&H powder
FFFg FFFFg
26 gr. 660 fps 778 fps
34 gr. 701* 885* MAXIMUM
=================================================
Ginormous
Member
Kanook, I believe your mistakes are due in no small part to confusion regarding measurements by volume and mass (weight at the earth's surface).
Black powder, as Scrat has pointed out, is measured by volume, and smokeless powders can be measured both by mass (weight) or volume.
These forums are comprised of individuals with varying degrees of competency and knowledge regarding safe usage of firearms, whether smokeless or black powder based. Providing incorrect information, either in jest or through ignorance, is likely to get you the kind of attention no one wants. When you post, you have a social obligation to be reasonably sure your data is correct. If not for your safety, then for the safety of others.
When in doubt, it may be wiser to say nothing. Better to be thought the fool . . . than to confirm it, especially if the bad advice can potentially hurt someone. No one wants that on their conscience.
Black powder, as Scrat has pointed out, is measured by volume, and smokeless powders can be measured both by mass (weight) or volume.
These forums are comprised of individuals with varying degrees of competency and knowledge regarding safe usage of firearms, whether smokeless or black powder based. Providing incorrect information, either in jest or through ignorance, is likely to get you the kind of attention no one wants. When you post, you have a social obligation to be reasonably sure your data is correct. If not for your safety, then for the safety of others.
When in doubt, it may be wiser to say nothing. Better to be thought the fool . . . than to confirm it, especially if the bad advice can potentially hurt someone. No one wants that on their conscience.
We use volume measurements for BP and the subs in order to get APPROXIMATELY equal power/pressure out of the load. An equal weight of the subs tends to be more powerful than an equal weight of BP. They are bulkier in order to give the same power as an equal volume of BP. The above statements apply to all the subs except 777, i.e. Pyrodex, APP, Black Mag, CleanShot, Clearshot, etc.
Smokin_Gun
Member
Sorry but that's jus' plain wrong to tell someone...BP and Subs are measured volumetrically...the 30gr spout on your flask is just fine to use...and that's fact not fiction...8O)
Are you sure you are in the right forum???
If you think you are then go read Holy Black Powder 101...
scrat
Member
Hope we didnt scare the guy
Ginormous
Member
Heh, we might have. It's also possible his last 30 grain load of Bullseye precludes the possibility of him responding.
Old Cannonballs
Member
The confusion is primarily due to the fact that technically, a grain is a unit of weight based on the weight of a grain of wheat taken as an average of the weight of grains from the middle of the ear, or 0.002286 of an ounce (according to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary). I don't know the exact history, but like Pancho I'm guessing that at some point someone figured out that it was a lot easier to measure the volume that x grains by weight of gunpowder takes up than to weigh the powder in the field, and so it became a convention to measure black powder by volume in "grains." Someone with a good enough scale could weigh a known volume of FFg, FFFg, etc., and figure out which one comes closest to having the number of grains by volume correspond to the number of grains by weight. But in any event with black powder and its substitutes, when they talk about 30 grains, they mean by volume, not weight.
scrat
Member
Welcome to THR Old Cannonballs
Old Cannonballs
Member
Thankee kindly!
I have been watching this thread with concern. Mostly due to how much urban legend is out there about black powder and how much of that legend is absolutely false. Time and time again I have found the truth to be something subtle and these myths and legends have giving it mythical status due to lack of education and ignorance.
Case in point, one guy local told me when I first started in black powder to never slide a cast iron skillet across the floor filled with black powder. I first thought, what moron would do something like that to begin with?
a quick wiki check ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder ) tells us this.
for those who missed it let me repost it.
Please dont spread urban legends, myths or the like esp when information is freely available to all to read and learn the truth by doing some basic searches and remember the fire triangle!
Case in point, one guy local told me when I first started in black powder to never slide a cast iron skillet across the floor filled with black powder. I first thought, what moron would do something like that to begin with?
a quick wiki check ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder ) tells us this.
for those who missed it let me repost it.
Please dont spread urban legends, myths or the like esp when information is freely available to all to read and learn the truth by doing some basic searches and remember the fire triangle!
To answer the original posters questions:
FFFg is indeed ground SMALLER than FFg. think of it as sieve sizes for grading, you have F which is large holes, FF smaller, FFF smaller still and FFFF the smallest of them all. Think of it like gravel, a pickup full of 1" gravel vs a pickup full of pea gravel, both may be 1 yard/scoup in volume but the weigh will be different. In this case 200 pounds different, pea gravel being heavier having more volume/surface area and smaller air pockets.
It really does *NOT* matter much if one scale is over or under, what DOES matter is consistency in your loading. If you use the same volume measure on each shot your shots will be more accurate.
Read the labels on these products! They say reduce volume by X amount clearly on the labels of substitute products (pyrodex, 777, etc..). Rule of economics states the smaller volume you have to use per shot the more shots you have per pound and the cheaper shooting will become. So there is NOTHING wrong with using LESS powder. Some of the best shooters I know use 30 grains in a long rifle where others would say 80 grains.
Also FFg and FFFg will yield different velocity and energy given the same volume.
FFFg is indeed ground SMALLER than FFg. think of it as sieve sizes for grading, you have F which is large holes, FF smaller, FFF smaller still and FFFF the smallest of them all. Think of it like gravel, a pickup full of 1" gravel vs a pickup full of pea gravel, both may be 1 yard/scoup in volume but the weigh will be different. In this case 200 pounds different, pea gravel being heavier having more volume/surface area and smaller air pockets.
It really does *NOT* matter much if one scale is over or under, what DOES matter is consistency in your loading. If you use the same volume measure on each shot your shots will be more accurate.
Read the labels on these products! They say reduce volume by X amount clearly on the labels of substitute products (pyrodex, 777, etc..). Rule of economics states the smaller volume you have to use per shot the more shots you have per pound and the cheaper shooting will become. So there is NOTHING wrong with using LESS powder. Some of the best shooters I know use 30 grains in a long rifle where others would say 80 grains.
Also FFg and FFFg will yield different velocity and energy given the same volume.
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