FFL license signed in blue ink?

[hboy35]

I just sold a rifle on gunbroker to a guy out of state. My auction stated that a FFL license be signed in blue or red ink (as suggested by gunbroker) and mailed to me with payment. I got payment today with a photocopy of a ffl license. I did the BATF FFL search and verified that it is a true ffl.

My question, do I (an individual, not a licensed FFL) need to have in hand a signed FFL license or will a photocopy suffice?
thanks

 

[Rio Laxas]

A photocopy is fine.

 

[dogtown tom]

hboy35: ...My question, do I (an individual, not a licensed FFL) need to have in hand a signed FFL license or will a photocopy suffice?
thanks

If every dealer only accepted hand signed in ink FFL's the gun business would slow to a crawl. I'm an FFL and have sent maybe three copies of my license with an ink signature in the last year. Faxed, scanned or emailed copies of the FFL have been allowed by ATF for several years. I scanned a signed copy of my license and am able to email the FFL as an attachment. It doesn't waste paper or run up my phone bill like using a fax.


You aren't an FFL, so there is no requirement for you to even get a copy of the license. All Federal law requires of you is to ship only to an FFL.

 

[toivo]

^ ^ ^ What he said.

Your only legal obligation is to ship to nobody but a licensed dealer. Whatever proves that to you is proof enough. If you can get his license number and look it up on the FFL EZ-Check site, that's enough. Just remember that you can only ship to the address on the license.

 

[Shadow 7D]

The only issue with signed FFL might be C&R or CL III (3) FFL's for an item that qualifies, they are not available on the web for confirmation, that being said some places will accept faxed other scanned other only confirmed pen (colored ink).

 

[natman]

There was a time not long ago when indeed only an actual signed copy in colored ink was acceptable. However, ATF has since changed the rules so that a faxed or photocopy is OK.

 

[hboy35]

thanks a bunch

you guys are the best. I really appreciate your help. I just didnt want to be wearing an orange jump suit and have a cell mate that calls me honey.
thanks

 

[natman]

P.S. While it's true that your legal obligation does not require you to have a copy of the FFL, as a practical matter you may find it difficult to ship a firearm without one. Most shippers will want to see a copy of the receiving FFL once you declare the package to be a firearm, which you are legally required to do.

FWIW.

 

[NavyLCDR]

P.S. While it's true that your legal obligation does not require you to have a copy of the FFL, as a practical matter you may find it difficult to ship a firearm without one. Most shippers will want to see a copy of the receiving FFL once you declare the package to be a firearm, which you are legally required to do.

FWIW.

He is NOT LEGALLY (meaning by act of law) required to declare the package to be a firearm BECAUSE it is going to a LICENSEE. He is only required by COMPANY POLICY to declare the firearm, but NOT by law.

 

[toivo]

He is NOT LEGALLY (meaning by act of law) required to declare the package to be a firearm BECAUSE it is going to a LICENSEE. He is only required by COMPANY POLICY to declare the firearm, but NOT by law.

What if he's using the US Post Office (to ship a long gun)? They do require notification when you ship a firearm. Don't US postal regs have the force of law? I always thought they did, but I'm not sure what applies here.

I have shipped a shotgun via the Post Office -- they wanted to see the addressee's FFL, which luckily I had with me. (I had put a copy in the box too -- not sure why. Did the addressee need to see his own license when he opened the box?)

 

[NavyLCDR]

What if he's using the US Post Office (to ship a long gun)? They do require notification when you ship a firearm. Don't US postal regs have the force of law? I always thought they did, but I'm not sure what applies here.

I have shipped a shotgun via the Post Office -- they wanted to see the addressee's FFL, which luckily I had with me. (I had put a copy in the box too -- not sure why. Did the addressee need to see his own license when he opened the box?)

The post office does not require notification of mailing a long gun beyond what is required by Federal law that I can find.

Domestic Mail Manual:
http://pe.usps.com/text/dmm300/601.htm#wp1065404

11.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e.

All of the notification requirements are in section 11.1 which applies only to concealable firearms.

Federal law does NOT require notification if the shipment is going to a license holder.

 

[toivo]

Thanks, NavyLT. I'm still a little confused, though--the USPS reg says, "The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e." If they didn't know it was a gun, how could they ask to certify that it's unloaded?

Federal law does NOT require notification if the shipment is going to a license holder.

This might be a stupid question, but is it ever legal to ship to a non-licensee? Besides antiques and CMP? Are those the only two circumstances where notification would be required by Fed law?

Now I know why I'm not a lawyer. Besides the cost of law school, I mean.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you go into the post office with a long, slender box, they are probably going to ask what is in it. Or, if you insure it, I think you have to declare what type of item you are insuring, not sure though. And, since it is, except for limited circumstances, illegal to ship a firearm out of state to other than an FFL, it is probably going to have some gun related address on it.

Anyway, generally it is illegal to ship a gun out of state to a non-licensee. In-state it doesn't matter, unless the state has some restrictive laws. That is why the Federal statute requires written notification to the carrier of a shipment of a firearm going out of state AND to a non-license holder - because that shipment is probably illegal and it keeps the carrier from being liable for the illegal shipment if they did not know they were doing it.

The statute that requires notification is 18 USC 922 (e):

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

 

[zoom6zoom]

generally it is illegal to ship a gun out of state to a non-licensee.

I can't think of any exceptions except for those classified as antiques (pre-1898).

 

[walker944]

I can't think of any exceptions except for those classified as antiques (pre-1898).

I think the only other exception is in the rare and unique case of shipping a handgun to yourself. For instance, if I am going on a hunting trip with my friend who lives in another state, and I don't want to mess with either taking it on the my vehicle or on the plane, then I legally can ship it to my brother's address, with me as the addressee.

 

[natman]

He is NOT LEGALLY (meaning by act of law) required to declare the package to be a firearm BECAUSE it is going to a LICENSEE. He is only required by COMPANY POLICY to declare the firearm, but NOT by law.

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

I see your point on law vs. company policy. As a practical matter however, you will still need a copy of the FFL to get it shipped in order to prove it's going to a licensee and if you don't declare it as a firearm, good luck with any potential insurance claims.

Thanks for quoting the applicable code.