Finally shot the durn thing (1858 Remington Pietta)

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SteveInColorado

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Hi all-

New here. I've owned a Cabela's stainless 1858 Remington Army .44 for several years, given to me by my father-in-law. It didn't have the starter kit with it, and I never could bring myself to spend the money on one. Finally got it for Father's Day, so I took it out to shoot it today. I spent quite a bit of time researching, even though I've shot single-shot blackpowder pistols before. Now I need some common sense answers to things that didn't add up..

I watched a Youtube video (not the best place to find accurate info, I know), and it showed filling the cylinder to 1/4" or so from the top. Then I found the owner's manual on Pietta's website, and it says 12-15 grains. I got out the powder measure, and opened it to 12 grains. Not much powder. So I opened it to 15. When this still looked pretty wimpy, I got out a reloading scale and weighed out 15 grains. It filled the measure to the 30 mark. That looked like a more reasonable amount of powder, but only filled the cylinder around half full. Can someone PLEASE tell me if this is right?

I put in felt wads, then started seating balls. Because the charge was so far down the cylinder, the balls tended to want to go all the way down. After the first one got rammed 1/3 into the cylinder, I figured for accuracy's sake I should seat them all that way. I felt confident enough that it was safe that I just stuck my off hand around a thick tree and let one fly. I didn't see any signs of anything wrong, so I shot the rest, no problems. Ran another cylinder-full the same way. Do I want to try to get the ball just in the end of the cylinder, and if so, any pointers on getting that done?

Anyway, I had a good time, still have my eyebrows and all digits, and thought the thing was as accurate at 40 feet as any of my modern pistols.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Steve.
 
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Check out the threads (Blackpowder Essentials) at the top of the forum, they're full of good advice. I stumble into good pieces of advice nearly every day I'm on here.

Here's some stuff I've learned and experienced the last few years I've been shooting my stainless Pietta Remington.

If you're using real blackpowder and most substitutes [bold]*[/bold], you can fill the chamber all the way to the top without harm. That's about 40 grains, but you get more accuracy with less powder. 15 to 25 grains is usually the sweet spot, but every pistol is different. Fillers are used to fill the cylinder so the ball can compress against the powder to prevent an air pocket from forming, which can be dangerous.

Blackpowder and substitutes like compression, you DO NOT want to leave any airspace between the ball and the powder. There are several threads on the forum and web sites online that talk about how to use various substances and components to fill up the cylinder to prevent this. Some of the materials will also help keep the pistol clean, or at least easier to clean.

Cornmeal, grits, cous cous, and felt wads, both dry and lubed are used as "filler" material, among others. Several people believe that these materials scour the bore when they're fired, reducing the amount of fouling and lubed wads soften the fouling, making it easier to remove during cleaning.

Blackpowder and their substitutes are measured in grains by volume, not weight. Real blackpowder dry volume measurements are supposed to weigh the same by weight, i.e. 20 grains of BP weighs 20 grains. Substitutes are lighter, they must be measured by volume but there are charts online that have the equivalent weights on them. It's easier to just measure by volume with a powder measure.

[bold]*[/bold] Hodgdon 777 (aka Triple Seven) and Pyrodex P should be reduced by 15%. They're more potent. You can use FF in your pistol, but it might shoot dirtier.

Even though your Pietta is stainless, don't let it sit for too long without cleaning or the bore and other places with heavy fouling will rust. It's got such a high chrome content, I was able to use lukewarm tap water and a bore brush to clean the bore and I wiped the rest down with a baby wipe followed by a clean cloth the other day. I only shot it a dozen times. If I shoot it more than that, I do a more thorough cleaning by taking the grips off and soaking it in scalding hot dishwater until it's cool enough to dip my hands in. Particular care is needed around the nipples. You can remove them before or after they're soaked, but they need to be scrubbed down with a toothbrush before they're re-installed. The nipple pockets (where they are installed) needs attention, too. Before you re-install the nipples you can put a little anti-seize compound on their threads so they're easy to remove the next time you clean.
 
Thanks for the reply, Wittzo. I'm ex-military, so I cleaned it before I sat down when I got home :). Bore fouling wasn't bad at all with lubed wads. The cylinder was filthy, though. Took the grips off and I did get all the spots mentioned.

I have Lee powder measure scoops. I'll see how they compare to my brass measure.

While waiting for a reply, I found the blackpowder essentials thread, and read through some of it. Learned a lot.

At 15 grains by weight (30 by volume?), I thought it shot pretty well. The shots I knew were placed right were in a 3" circle at 40 feet standing. That's about as good as I can do with a smokeless pistol. I had a few flyers due to my grip with the heavy trigger and hammer, but I'll work that out with time.

So back to seating depth- If I understand you, I do want the ball in the end of the cylinder for accuracy. If I use a filler, do I want to put a wad on top of the charge, then filler, then ball?

Thanks for the help.

Steve.
 
First, just a comment on wittzo's post: you are correct about 777 needing to be reduced by 15% to obtain an equivalent charge to real black powder. That is, for a load of 30 grains by volume of real black powder one should use 30*.85=25 grains by volume of 777. However, Pyrodex should not be reduced. It is equivalent by volume to real black powder. One other thought: unlike real black powder and all the other black powder substitutes, 777 does not react well to compression. If using 777 the ball should be firmly seated on the powder but without compressing the powder.

Second, I'm quite concerned about this 15 grains by weight being 30 grains by volume. There is no black powder, real or substitute, that converts from volume to weight at a 2 to 1 ratio. Either your scale or your volume measure is seriously out of calibration. Or did you use Lee scoops to get the volume measurement - Lee scoops are calibrated in cubic centimeters, not grains so perhaps that's the problem. What brand of powder are you using?

Finally, you are correct that the reason for adjusting the ball to be near the chamber mouth is for improved accuracy, but the effect is small, and unless you're a very good pistol shooter you aren't going to see the results of that effort. The wad and filler can be interchanged, so either powder/wad/filler/ball or powder/filler/wad/ball would be ok.
 
Go by the volume. Blackpowder loads are measured by volume and not weight.

I shoot my own 1858's with 30 gr by volume and find that it's much the same kick as a .38Spl. Just right for plinking and to ensure a long life for the gun. At one point I'm going to try upping it to around 35 for a cylinder just to try it but likely I'll stick with 30 for all around shooting. Folks have reported using up to as much as 40 grs and I'd imagine that it would be very .357 Magnum like at that point.

Without a wad 30 is about the minimum I can use on my Uberti clones and still allow the ram to put some compression on the powder. I don't shoot with wads. Just powder, ball and a drop of canola oil over the ball to seal the chambers from any risk of chainfire from the front.
 
Second, I'm quite concerned about this 15 grains by weight being 30 grains by volume. There is no black powder, real or substitute, that converts from volume to weight at a 2 to 1 ratio. Either your scale or your volume measure is seriously out of calibration. Or did you use Lee scoops to get the volume measurement - Lee scoops are calibrated in cubic centimeters, not grains so perhaps that's the problem. What brand of powder are you using?
Click to expand...

Ok. It wasn't exactly 2 to 1. It was more like 27, and I tweaked it to 30. I just tried the Lee scoops (no, I hadn't used them before), and went backwards. I got out the scoops, looked at the chart, and filled the proper one for 30 grains of Pyrodex P. I weighed this, and it weighed 30 grains on the money (Lyman Pro 500 scale). I then took this charge and put it in my 50 grain powder measure. It pretty much filled it to the top, at least 47 grains. So no, not 2 to 1, but I guess I may as well have ignored the load instructions :eek:. Not good, except I seem to have found the right place to start by idiotic luck.

On another note, the powder I was using earlier was already in the flask of the accessory kit. The kit was in the bargain cave at Cabela's, and was missing a few key items like a list of what was in it and instructions :cuss:. Apparently it's lighter than Pyrodex by a little bit, but I don't know what it is.

However, Pyrodex should not be reduced.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I was thinking back when I had hair and it was all one color that Pyrodex had something on the can about using the same amount as BP. Yes, just looked and it says "use by equivalent volume...".

Like I said, I have shot some black powder, but not revolvers. I thought 12-15 grains was a little low, especially when I saw people filling their cylinder to the brim. If I hadn't felt safe, I would have lashed it to a tree or fence post. In retrospect, I should have asked here first, but it went OK.

The kit came with wads, so I used 'em. I figured out from my research I could go either way, but I felt like they would give me the best barrier to chainfire.

So... I take it BCRider seats his balls a ways down the cylinder. What about other people? I know with smokeless powder it's bad to mix ammo seated at different depths, so it seems to me the best point of reference is the end of the cylinder. I guess this means I need to learn more about filler or get over my hangup ;).

Last thing- I bought some .454 balls, but today I used the ones in the kit. They didn't appear to have a sprue, but they shaved very differently. A couple took off a good ring, but most only took off a very thin half-circle. I'm guessing they're .451's, and I'll be happier with the .454's?

Keep all the comments rolling. I'm getting schooled by the second :).
 
So... I take it BCRider seats his balls a ways down the cylinder......
Click to expand...

:eek: You make it sound so PAINFUL ! :eek:

:D

I'm actually keen to try some cream of wheet or oat bran filler to seat the balls right by the mouth of the cylinder and compare the accuracy of the groups, I only use the powder and ball combo deep seated option for the guns during CAS events where I just need to hit a big steel cartoon cowboy at out to about 7 to 12 yards. I just haven't got around to trying the filler yet.

And the drop of oil is equally a nod to the need to get reloaded quick like and go help with running the stage at the meets. Oddly enough it has worked out superbly and I've found that the fouling I get is by all accounts I've seen softer and soupier than the same crud found in Crisco lubed guns. And best of all I don't notice any sign of the cylinder getting draggy on my Remingtons even after shooting 6 stages in a day. And that's 6x5=30 shots per gun.

On the bigger arbors on the open tops that I got a while back I did find that I noticed some drag after only 3 cylinders worth of shots. A drop of the canola cooking oil and a gentle spin had them back into shape for another 3 cylinders. At that point we packed up and headed home since it had already been a long day what with painting the loading shed insides with white paint to brighten things up.
 
The real key to accuracy with bp revolvers is consistency - measured charges, the same size/weight projectiles, consistent loading technique every time. I assume you know how to work up a load to find the gun's 'sweet spot'. Whether you use 20, 22, 25, 27 or 30 grains, a .457, .454 or .451 ball, Cream of Wheat or corn meal, a lubed wad or grease or oil or all of the above is something you need to work out for yourself; that's the fun part of this, seeing what works best for your gun.
 
Balls should be large enough for shaving a Lead 'Ring' when being Rammed into the Cylinder.

Black Powder should be hard compressed, with or with out 'filler', either way.

I use thin Lube Wads between Powder and Ball, and I make these using strips of Paper Towel, and, running them thru' Molten Bees Wax and Olive Oil ( just a dab of the latter ), once cool and stiff, I use an old Gasket Punch for punching out slightly over sized Discs...and these have been excellent for allowing good Bullet/Barrel Lubrication, no fouling, and easy clean up.

Glad to hear you finally took the plunge.

No way back now!
 
I knew about 777 being 15% more powerful, I erred on the side of caution and included Pyrodex P in my caveat. Hodgdon's site mentions that Pyrodex weighs 30% less than BP, so if you use weighed charges based on BP, you need to reduce your charge by 30% in weight to duplicate a BP load.

According to Hodgdon's web site, 777 allows light compression when it's being loaded into cartridges; they don't mention compression at all when referring to rifles or BP pistols. In their cartridge section, they also state that you shouldn't use fillers in cartridges.

One of the first times I shot my pistol, I accidentally had the powder measure set for 40 grains instead of 30. It must have slid while I was fumbling with the set screw. I shot 6 shots with 40 grains of compressed 777. That was the first time my load lever fell. I ended up using 20 grains of powder topped off with a dry felt wad and a lubed felt wad under the ball.

When I load paper cartridges, I can't easily load a wad, so I use filler instead. I make a tube of cigarette paper with the ball glued to the end, pour in the filler, then pour in the powder and twist it shut. If I used filler directly in the pistol, I would put a dry wad between the two, but it would be redundant. The wad accomplishes the same thing the filler does; take up space and wipe the bore upon firing.

Do not put a wad in front of the ball, that would act as a plugged barrel. The only thing allowed in front of the ball is either air or some sort of lube if you use it. There again, the greased felt wads I load behind the ball accomplish the same thing as lube in front of the ball; seal the cylinder from sparks and lube the bore to soften fouling. I don't have to worry about our 90 degree heat making lube dribble down my leg.
 
I have 4 of them 2 in .36 & 2 in .44 still hasn't shot them, soon though for the .44's. The .36's are consecitive serial # not sure when I shoot them.
 
You do not have to worry about a repro revolver blowing up if you are using real black powder, it is safe with all the powder you can get in the cylinder and top with a ball.

Tieing the gun to a tree or such is only necessary when testing a homebuilt Kentucky rifle or such. The Italian revolvers are made of better steel than the originals, so the Walkers and Dragoons will stay in one piece, but will crush wedges with a steady diet of 50 or 60 gr of BP.
 
You do not have to worry about a repro revolver blowing up if you are using real black powder, it is safe with all the powder you can get in the cylinder and top with a ball.
Click to expand...

I thought as much, but I had 2 things going I wasn't expecting- The charge seemed to be (and I'm still a little unclear on this one) TWICE what Pietta recommends, plus the ball seated deeper than I envisioned. I wonder if Pietta's recommended load is by weight :confused:?

I think next time out, I'll try 25-30 grains, a dry wad, and a lubed wad. If I can't get over this wad thing, I guess I better start making my own :).

You make it sound so PAINFUL !
Click to expand...
No wonder you need canola oil :D.

Thanks again for all the replies.

Steve.
 
Pietta is a little anal due to ambulance chasers looking for $, so they go for their recommended low max loads.

I use a Kirst .45 LC cylinder in my Pietta 58 Remmy, have used 7 grains of Trail Boss and 185 grain cast, gives right at 900 fps. Normal plinking load for me with 185 grn cast is 6 grains of TB at 800 fps. The Pietta has a slow RB twist, with 250 grain cast, accuracy is atrocious for me.

"NOTE" :Trail Boss powder is very light and fluffly and is for cartiridges only, not for C&B etc, but NEVER EVER compress it, bad things have been known to happen.

So the Pietta is strong enough, but I don't go nuts for bragging rights.
 
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Remington Pietta 1858 New Model Army .44 caliber===24 grains of Triple Seven 3fff is a pretty good load....My load is 30 grains of Triple Seven 3fff/.451 swaged round lead ball/Remington #10 percussion cap/... Work's good for me, plenty of power, and dosen't even so much as vibrate a screw loose on the piece. I use Crisco or gun grease over the balls to prevent chainfire. Have wads I bought from Cabela's but very very seldom use them. Just got used to doing it the other way....
 
From Pietta's website (owner's manual)-
BE CERTAIN that the ball is seated firmly against the powder charge
before firing any muzzleloading firearm. Any gap between the ball and
the powder charge could cause excessive pressure and explosion of
the barrel. If you can't push the ball against the powder charge, use a
ball puller to remove it.
Click to expand...
Using the loading lever, apply smooth and uninterrupted
pressure to seat ball into the chamber and firmly on top of
the powder. The ball should lay .040" (1mm) below the cylinder
edge.
Click to expand...

OK, I was going to ask on what friggin' planet you would ever need to check for 4 hundredths of an inch clearance on your ball if it was "seated firmly against" 15 grains of powder. But then I looked again at the load chart, and it also lists loads by grams. A unit of mass, or for loading purposes, weight. I think they ARE listing 12-15 grains BP WEIGHED. OK again :what:. Found a conversion calculator from grains to grams, and 12 grains weighs .78 grams, or the low end of the load scale of .8 grams. 15 grains weighs .97 grams, or the limit of 1 gram. SOOOOO.... the max load per Pietta, which is where I started with all of this, is close to 30 grains by volume.

My brain needs beer now.

Steve.
 
I went 'round in my head and on my reloading bench with this, and came back to: if Pietta's standard is based on BP, BP weighs over 20% more than Pyrodex, so the max load comes back down to about 21 grains :banghead:.

While searching around, I did find this page-
http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_volumetric.htm

I guess the bottom line is that from what I've heard here and read other places, I'll load 25-30 grains. If my gun blows up in some freak accident, I won't blame Pietta. Guess that's what they wanted in the first place.

Now I need 2 beers.

Steve.
 
BP is generally not WEIGHED. It is volume measured and the substitutes are measured in the same volume measures as weight equivalents of BP. I use Lee scoops for my Pietta Navy, but I have a flask with measure for my Ruger OA. I just haven't gotten a measure for the flask for the Pietta, yet. It's not that important to me, anyway, as using the Lee dippers is just as convenient. I load light loads, it being a brass frame gun, and use corn meal as a filler so as to properly seat the bullet out where it should be. The gun won't blow up with a full charge of even 777, but the frame will stretch over time being made of the soft metal, so downloading keeps it around in the collection in shootable condition. I don't use the over powder wads, some do, I don't. A little dab of Crisco, might be a bit messy, but it keeps the fouling soft. Others do thing different. Some use cream of wheat. I do prefer the taste of cream of wheat, but if you got Crisco and cornmeal with you, by golly, all you need is fish and you can eat well if nothing else. :D

Ain't none of it rocket science. Shoot that thing and have fun!
 
BTW, even though it's the strongest BP revolver out there, I usually shoot light loads, 21 grain equiv. of 777 behind a 220 grain conical, in my ROA. It's more pleasant to shoot and dead accurate. A full charge of 777 is akin to shooting a super blackhawk in .44 magnum. The lighter load means less fatique and accurate shooting and saves powder. It's like shooting specials in your .44 for range use. Besides, full charges in that gun recoil enough that the bullets sometimes pull far enough forward on recoil by the forth shot to start contacting the forcing cone and make cocking the gun more difficult. Lighter loads don't do that. If I was going to hunt with the gun, I'd load it full, but just for range fun, why bother, unless you just have this urge to get punished. :D
 
MCgunner, that's why I use 30 grains of Triple Seven 3fff. I only use mine for hunting (which I don't even do much of that anymore) and for home defense. I just hunt maybe 2 or 3 times a year and get my winter meat. Of course I don't use the .44 as the main gun for hunting. I just have it with me. Feel kind of naked and exposed without it. The one I carry most all the time is the color case hardened model with the laser cut grips. I guess that over the years I have just gotten used to that particular model and looks from carrying it so much. It's pretty damn accurate with the load I use although it does buck and jump a little....
 
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