Fire lapping a Rem 700P

[Rob62]

In keeping with my personnal motto of, "If it aint broken keep working on it till it is".

I'm thinking of fire lapping my still fairly new 700P. Right now I've completed the normal barrel break in process and am getting around .8" 5 shot groups at 100 yds. I really, really, want to bring the groups down to the .5" range and have already installed an after market Shilen trigger.

The current scope is a 3-9x Leupold that will get switched out to a higher magnification as soon as funds allow.

So what I'm thinking is why not shoot a couple of lead 600 grit lapping compound impregnated bullets down the bore to see what that does.

I would presume that I really don't need to start with the 320 grit lapping compound first as the overall bore condition is pretty good.

How does 600 grit lapping compound compare with JB bore base as far as abrasivenes? Seems like they are about the same.

Any thoughts here?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Steve Smith]

If you're going to do it, I would suggest you use David Tubb's Final Finish, He'll tell you which ones to start with.

 

[swifter]

The results of blasting grit down your bore are pretty predictable.
I've seen throats move upbore far enough that you could have the bullet in the case, or you could have the bullet touch the lands... But not both!

Have you gone thru the usual?
Rebed, free float, recrown? If not, there are a number of riflesmiths that offer "accuracy packages" for a couple hundred or so that tweak out all the mass production errors.
My choice would be to send it to a good 'smith and have a quality match barrel installed. Most 'smiths will true the action and rebed as part of the service. Not as cheap as firelapping, but it will work!

.8" isn't bad, what are your expectations?

Tom

 

[JohnDog]

Loads?

What type of loads have you tried to get to the .8 inch groups. You do handload, don't you? I'd try a bunch of bullet/powder combinations before I'd try anything else.

JohnDOg

 

[Rob62]

I know that I could spend more bucks on having a gunsmith blueprint the action but I am not planning on having that done.

My 5 shot .8" groups at 100yds aren't too bad. And if that is all the gun ever does I'll be happy. Specially with a 3-9x scope. I'm sure the groups will shrink even more when I put a higher magnification scope on the gun. My current loads are 168gr Sierra MKs over a Federal Match primer with a near maximum load of IMR 4895 (42.1 grs IIRC). Cases are Federal trimmed to length, with flash holes deburred. My goal is consistent .5" 5 shot groups at 100yds or better.

When I run out of the IMR 4895 I'll try some IMR 4064 which has been recommended to me to try. Also on my short list of powders to try is Varget.

For right now I'm just trying to tinker around with something new and different, firelapping. Forget about anything fancy being done to this gun. I plan on keeping it basically stock with the exception of the already replaced trigger. Also I'm seriously looking at getting a replacement solid steel trigger guard/floorplate later down the road.

FWIW - I know that I'll put a few treated .22RF's down a Rem 581 barrel and see if that guns accuracy improves any.

I'd still like to know about the 600 grit compound. Will it actually "polish" my already decent factory 700P barrel or would it screw up the break in I've already done on the gun, and make the gun shoot worse. I already have the fire lapping kit. It was on sale at the Sportsman Guide. About $14.95 for the complete Wheeler Bore Lapping Kit, which is made by the good folks at Midway.

The break in was basically what most people recommend. Clean new gun real good, fire 1 clean, fire 1 clean, fire 1 clean, fire 3 clean, fire 3 clean and so on. I shot 1 then 3 and then lastly 3 groups of 5.

While there are many variations on the above break in proceedure I think this was in line with the way most people do it.

Rob

 

[Nero Steptoe]

"Most people" who read what Gale McMillan had to say about barrel break-in probably don't follow the regimen that you described. If ol' Gale heard you even having visions of lapping a new barrel, he'd probably jump up out of his grave and puke straight up.

Why don't you go ahead and buy that better scope; fine tune your reloading, working especially on different o.a.l.'s and powder/bullet combo's, rather than trying to "F" up a really nice rifle?

 

[Art Eatman]

From the standpoint of the surface smoothness of a barrel, I'd call 600-grit "coarse".

IIRC, jeweler's rouge is somewhere north of 2000. I use the rouge when I polish the throat and ramp of my 1911s...

Odds are, just keeping on shooting your groups and trying your various loads will do as good as any artificial efforts at smoothing. I'd check the effect of playing with forearm presssure on the barrel, out at the tip. I'd try backing off a bit on the powder charge; it is not uncommon for best accuracy to be found with loads that are one to three grains below max.

Art

 

[Steve Smith]

600 seems course to me too. Again I suggest the Final Finish if you really want to lap. David Tubb has been doing it a long time and I'm sure its not all that bad...but I'm not doing it...yet.

Anyway, I doubt that that stock barrel is even close to what Gale considered "lapped" so who knows, might do a heckuva job. I'd be interested in your results, as long as you use a proper lapping system and not just dip some bullets in ACME valve lapping compound.

 

[Rob62]

I guess that firelapping the 700P barrel at this point isn't the best thing to do so I'll put it off for a while. At least till I get the higher magnification scope on it and see how it shoots then.

Thanks for all the suggestions and ideas.

Rob

 

[larryw]

Gale McMillan wasn't talking about mass produced barrels, but hand-lapped customs.

I ran FinalFinish down the bore of my 700VS. The gun shoots better and the 700 is much easier to clean and shoots much longer before I notice a degradation in accuracy due to fouling. .5" groups with this gun, when I do my job, are a disapointment. I've since done my 541T with similar results. And a RedHawk. And a Marlin 1894. And my 30-06 deer gun.

Here's one afternoon's results with the 700 shortly after the Final Finish treatment: most customs don't shoot this well. Over 100 rounds in five and ten shot groups, two different loads, no cleaning, flyers shooter's fault (BS'ing with buddies while shooting).

 

[Delmar]

Before you run the equivelant of a dremel tool down your barrel, make sure the action screws are tight, but not overtight. A torque wrench is invaluable when snugging the action down correctly-loose screws will bend your recoil lug and nothing but a new one will fix that. Too tight and you're bending the action in ways it doesn't like. I have a vs which is a dozen years old and the more I have shot it, the better it gets. Firelapping, after all, is going to put about the same wear on the bore as practicing with the rifle, with the advantage that you will become more familiar with the rifle. My groups started out at between .5 and .8, and the best factory ammo was Remington match 168's. That is something you might try as well, rather than trying to find the perfect handload. My groups on a good day will run around .5 overall, with the best groups of the day close to .2. It ain't the rifle-its me when I start getting flyers.
Good quality scopes are important-it may be helpful to step up in magnification, especially if your eyes aren't 100%.

 

[BallisticTip]

I agree with Delmar, he is right on in every way.

 

[jimbo]

I'm gonna add fuel to the fire (donning Nomex!) with this article from the ever controversial Chuck Hawks in which he claims a 40% improvement in accuracy from a Remington 700 fire lapped with David Tubb's final finish system:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/affordable_accuracy.htm

Let the flame war's commence!

PS - I can't vouch for the system myself nor discredit it. I have no experience. My logic fails me here. If the system is "relatively" abrasive, it would seem to achieve nothing more than accelerated barrel wear. If the system is "relatively" fine then it could very well polish a "relatively" rough barrel surface.

I just have absolutely NO reference frame from which to judge. And there is zero consensus among experts for or against these systems. For every individual who swears by fire lapping, there is on who swears it is sacrilegeous.:banghead:

Note to self, in best Jack Nicholson voice: "YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

 

[ocabj]

Rather than trying to fire lap your barrel, just test out different loads and practice shooting more from prone. By the time you do extensive load testing and do a regiment of 20-30 rounds a range session, you'll put several hundred rounds through the barrel.

By then it will be lapped naturally. This way, you actually were able to get other things done at the same time (testing powders, practicing practical shooting).

 

[P0832177]

I did two things with a Rem 700 VS 308 barrel. First after trying numerous loads, and none of the known accuracy loads seemed work I did the FF treatment. And, well it did change the gun from shooting MOA to sub MOA and I mean less the 0.5MOA. Next I had the barrel recrowned. I have the gun's action screws torqued to HSP spec. I have the scope mounted in good set up materials, IE Badger Ord rings and base. The trigger is a Rifle Basix model.

Not defending David Tubb, but he has forgot more about shooting then anyone person on this board. His resume speaks for itself! And, that should speak volumes more then anyone. He is the man!

 

[AZRickD]

My brother, the long-range varmint shooter has fire-lapped just about every one of his centerfire rifles (all Savages). He reports accuracy improvements each time and groups measuring aroung 0.2" for his .223 and .22-250 and 5/8" for his light-barreled .243.

I've decided against fire lapping my 10FP since I've gotten the accuracy I need with handloads (.25 to .5). Time to work on me, not my rifle.

Rick

 

[jimbo]

Rick,

What system does your brother use?

 

[Powderman]

Before you firelap, try the following load:

First, I assume that you are a competent handloader, as evident from your quoted group size. Do the normal match case prep, then try this load:

155 gr. MatchKing
42.0 IMR 4895
Federal Match Primer

Start out with the bullet seated just off the lands, and go from there. I have excellent results with this round loaded to magazine length in my M1A.

Moreover, you are correct about your scope. Rule of thumb I have followed is this: Smaller group = higher magnification.

I bet you would see immediate improvement if you mounted a 6-20x50 on that rifle.

 

[artherd]

Get the better scope, and see how well the rifle actually shoots first.

0.8MOA is not bad at all. Frankly, I can't hold a gun much better than that.

Try prone with lots of sandbags.

 

[ocabj]

A higher magnification scope is not the best answer to shrinking groups. In this case it probably won't help that much considering the original poster's group testing was shot at 100 yards. 9x/10x is perfectly fine for shooting sub-MOA groups @ 100.

And even a higher magnification scope won't help a rifle that is already shooting the best it can.

.8MOA is very good. Not every factory rifle will shoot .5MOA. Lots of people claim that their Remington, Savage, Winchester, FN, Tikka, Sako, etc will shoot 1/2" groups at 100yds, but this doesn't mean they all will. A lot of times, these claims are not justifiable because many people base them on 3-5 shot groups and claim 'flyers' on those groups with that 1 shot that streches the group from 1/2" to 1"-1.5".

If you want to test the rifle even more, try shooting 10-15 shot aggregate groups (spacing time between shots to keep the barrel consistently cool/warm). Shoot lots of those 10-15 shot groups especially when testing the load.

But again, I recommend you forget the whole getting a new scope business for now and keep shooting the rifle as is. Practice practice practice. Don't concern yourself with trying to shrink the groups to .5MOA or better. I'm sure you will end up finding a load with X powder and Y bullet that will make your groups tighten up and overtime break in the barrel even more after a few hundred rounds and those two factors combined with practice will get you in that .5MOA zone that you seek.

Not to say you shouldn't get a higher magnification scope, especially if you want to shoot some serious F-class/1000yd. I just think a higher magnification scope isn't going to necessarily help you bring your rifle from .8MOA to .5MOA.

 

[Rob62]

Thread Update

Since I started this thread almost a year ago I have since gotten rid of the rifle. Not due to any problems with the gun, just needed the funds from the sale for other projects.

I never did get a higher magnification scope for the gun. It sold with its 3-9X Leupold scope attached. I am still convinced that a higher magnification scope would have made an improvement in the groups I was getting.

FWIW - After reading much about fire lapping a barrel I have come to the conclusion that I am a fan. I've since used the fire lapping kit I bought through the Sportsman Guide and was pleased with the results. I used this kit on 2 separate guns. A .243 and a .22Rf rifle. Both guns showed considerable improvement after the process. While I did not keep precise measurements of the accuracy improvements IIRC it was in the 20% range.

Lessons I've learned from this whole experience - Use a high power scope. My next heavy barrel gun will have at least a scope on it capable of 14x magnification. Ideally something along the lines of a variable capable of up to 18X. A good light trigger is invaluable. Sandbags from a bench are just as good as a higher dollar bench rest vice. Don't use fire lapping right away. Try other techniques/improvements in equipment first.

Regards,

Rob

 

[AZRickD]

I'm not sure which kit my bro uses. I've just e-mailed him the question.

He may "roll" his own.

Maybe three different grits. Down loads the cartridge waaaaay down so that the bullet has just enough energy to plooop out the muzzle.

I'll let you know if he can recommend a kit for ya.

Rick

 

[AZRickD]

Ah. A surprise...

I used one sold by Midway. However, after looking at the throat of a barrel I firelapped through Fred Moreo's (owner of SharpShooterSupply) bore scope, I wouldn't do it again, except for using it as a last resort on a "sour" barrel.

The rifling forward of the throat was pretty well washed out for a considerable distance. It did improve the accuracy and cleanability of the barrel, but you are
significantly shortening the barrel life. It's better just to get a good barrel to start.

 

[jimbo]

Rick,

Thanks for the speedy reply. It sounds like your brother has confirmed what so many here have said - that fire lapping shortens barrel life considerably.

Ironic, eh?

Fire lapping improves accuracy at the cost of barrel life. Those who need exceptional accuracy, target shooters, then end up with a barrel that can't be used as long for practice and competion.

Hunters, who don't need the extreme accuracy fire lapping may provide, don't need the long barrel life because pure hunting rifles don't get shot very much over the course of a lifetime or even two.

Once again, life strikes back!:banghead:

 

[AZRickD]

One of Life's Bitter Ironies...

Rick