Firearms Design Info

[boonie]

Here's a quick hello and introduction before my question.

I've lurked on and off here and at several other websites for the past 6 months or so.

I'm a college student in NY ( ) with a interest in firearms design. I've already made a model of an older firearm (with a bit of butchering/modification on my own) from plans I've found online and done some reading/research on current guns.

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Right now, I'm working on designing a bolt action precision rifle, don't have much yet, just basic shapes and models for the receiver, barrel, stock and bolt.


I've done a lot of searching online for blueprints and such and haven't found anything real useful.
So far, I've only found a couple sites with a list of "schematics", showing simple, low res exploded parts diagrams and two or three other companies selling blueprints/schematics. There's also that often repeated ad on shadier websites for cd's "full of plans for educational use only".
I've searched THR's forums and found nothing on this subject but a relatively recent request for plans/schematics and info on a semiauto carbine a member was building a year or two ago.
arfcom's got a precision rifle forum... mostly with photo's, gossip, and some discussion about which gunsmith to send a rifle off to.

So far, biggerhammer (subguns.net?) has had the most useful info with a couple pdf blueprints.


I've also been searching for information on firearms design, without much success.

For example, I've been looking for info on the quick change barrel systems used in machine guns and sporting shotguns. Haven't found much on them yet.
I cant even find photos showing how they work.
The best I've found was for the newer AR-15 "Monolithic Rail System" (not sure if I've named it right). This system is just a bolt screwed into the receiver holding the barrel extension in place, with a second bolt tightening the receiver around the barrel.

I'm still wondering how well these systems can maintain a zero, repeating a zero after removing the barrel and how the lever/switch systems work (as on the mg42 and m60).
The M-60 field manual available online doesn't even show this in detail! :banghead:


I've also searched for information on "Precision Rifle Design" and similar topics and haven't found much useful information. Mostly it's just ad's for gunsmithing services, and occasionally a barrel manufacturer or a review from a hunting mag.


So, do you know of any good sources of info on firearms design? I'm considering heading to the library in my free time, but I'd be surprised if they have anything useful, given the area I'm in.


Right now, I'm mainly looking for stuff on precision rifles.

I like to think I have a good idea of what makes a rifle accurate (floating the barrel, rigid receiver/bolt, etc), but I don't know much more than that...

Should I just stick to looking at current rifles and what plans I've found online?

I don't know for sure, but I'm either doing terrible job searching for this, or there isn't a lot of this information online, so I apologize if this is a dupe or if I missed something obvious.

ETA:
new thought;
I'm also going to check out what other field manuals/user manuals I can find, they should have more detailed diagrams.

also,
sorry if this is in the wrong forum, wasn't sure if it belonged in general, rifle or gunsmithing

 

[carebear]

Have you tried the library?

A bookstore?

I would forget trying to find a PDF to download and go straight to the source. Take a trip around to local gunshops and look at the book rack. Check Brownell's (brownells.com) online catalog for all sorts of resource reading.

Remember, the internet is primarily full of garbage. Real research still means reading paper.

 

[Zak Smith]

Like many specialized fields, the subtleties of firearm/action design are probably easiest studied by examining successes and failures of others.

With regard to changable barrel precision rifles, look at the AI-AW.

I like to think I have a good idea of what makes a rifle accurate (floating the barrel, rigid receiver/bolt, etc), but I don't know much more than that...

Look up books about Benchrest competition rifles. There are several with such titles as The Accurate Rifle, Ultimate Rifle Accuracy, etc.

Then look at purpose-designed actions like the Stolle, Nesika, Viper (for Benchrest), the Tubb 2000 action (for high-power Match rifle), and the dedicated sniper platforms of the AI-AW/AWM, SAKO TRG-42, etc.

-z

 

[Jonathan]

Talk to a smith that specializes in precision rifles.

 

[Preacherman]

I'll move this thread to the Gunsmithing forum, as that's where you're most likely to find the expertise you need.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

One of the reasons you don't find blueprints or precision diagrams, at least for modern weapons, is that folks in the gun industry consider this type of information to be proprietary information. It isn't shared readily or easily.

 

[mete]

You could always wade through patents for gun designs.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Patents are the best.

BTW, are you sure that precision rifle and "quick change barrel" are compatible? Each barrel shoots differently from one another you have to shoot once to check your zero.

You may try to track down the HS-Precision take down rifle. I believe they have an interrupted thread (think of a breech for an artillery piece) that allow the barrel to twist off easily.

 

[Sam]

You may have to resort to doing things the old fashioned way.
Procure weapons that have features you value and buy them, then completely disassemble and reverse engineer them. You will end up learning more that way in any case. It is the ONLY way to really learn how they work and the interaction of parts and systems.
If you want to design guns, it's the way to start.
Books and even schools can only show you generic princples and techniques.

Set aside a thousand for basic tools and measuring eqpt., about 500 for busted old guns and another 500 for some drawing eqpt. and supplies.
After you get done with a gun, copying all of it's pertinant information and dimensions, put all the information and notes together, re-assemble the gun, sell it and buy another. You will ruin a few and keep a few but thats the way to see how it all fits together.

After you understand how they work you can sit down and try design, which is a bit more involved than fitting together the best features of what is already out there. While you are still in college, study metallurgy, to learn what it takes materiel wise and production engineering, so that you can design things that can be built at a profit. Then study business so you will know what to do with whatever you come up with.

By the way, Welcome aboard.

Sam

 

[Jim K]

They won't be to the detail you want, but anyone interested in rifle design should read the two-volume The Bolt Action, by Stuart Otteson. The second volume was published much later than the first, but I think both are now out of print. You might find a copy using Amazon's used book search. You will not find engineering blueprints, but you will find a lot of good information.

Jim

 

[Kaylee]

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

 

[boonie]

I hadn't thought of looking at benchrest guns yet.
I'll look through the patents some as well.

I am also planning on looking for books at the library.

4v50 Gary, my idea for the quick change barrel is that it might be possible to change the barrel out with few or no tools. I'm just thinking that it would be a nice feature on these rifles that shoot out barrels within 2500 rounds. It would be neat to just buy a "barrel assembly", drop it in, and double check the headspace.
I'm also thinking that it would be useful to swap the 308 barrel/bolt for a 22 barrel/bolt (whatever combo, you get the idea) at the range.
The AI rifles look pretty simple with the torque wrench and chamber tool. I'm just trying to figure out if it would be possible to completely do away with the vice and special tools.

Walt, I understand that blueprints and diagrams could be considered proprietary info, but I'm kinda surprised that these aren't readily available for older guns.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

 

[Jim Watson]

There are a fair number of switch-barrel benchrest rifles. The changeover is made with an internal action wrench and a barrel vise. Handles are about a foot long, the barrels are not installed nearly as tight as factory. And they are individually fitted, no quick change out of a catalog.

 

[Jim K]

One approach is to look at light and medium machineguns. Most have a very rapid barrel change system. Whether those ideas could be adaped to a rifle within a reasonable size and weight, I don't know.

Jim

 

[saands]

Boonie,

You didn't mention what you area of study is, but if you are looking for technical information, then the US Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO as mentioned above by several others) is a GREAT place to get the real scoop. The way a patent works is that the government gives the inventor exclusive rights (government enforced) for a specified time (currently 20 years after the date of filing on a normal - aka utility - patent) in exchange for the inventor spilling all the beans on why it works and what the best method of implementing it is (as of the filing date). The trick is finding the patents of interest as the titles are not usually very descriptive. My hint here: "Assignees" are entities that have been assigned rights to the patents, so I would suggest that you search in the "Assignee" field for names like Browning, Remington, Winchester, Fabrique Nationale, Sako, etc ... the engineers who do the inventing are almost always bound to assign their inventions to their employers ... that's just the way it works. Some of the language is real legalese, but if you can get past that, the information can be golden.

Saands

 

[brickeyee]

Patents will explain how something works, but rarely is there adequate information for someone not experienced in the filed to construct the device. Simpler device can often be figured out, but complicated devices have just enough information revealed to secure the patent without telling how to actually manufacture the item.
Patent drawings are rarely dimensioned, and done in a particular style that has changed little in the past few hundred years.
Manufacturing blueprints normally contain tolerance data and are considered proprietary. Drawings for some weapons are available if the US government owns the design (M-16, M-1, etc).

 

[Jay Kominek]

Drawings for some weapons are available if the US government owns the design (M-16, M-1, etc).

How does a fellow get his hands on these? Write a nice letter to the DOD?

 

[Owen]

Be careful with the patent drawings. Just because there is a patent on something doesn't mean it actually works.


It's very common for gun companies to patent something, not to protect the invention, but to keep someone else from looking into it. I know that some of the companes I have worked for have filed, and received patents on some fairly dubious ideas. At one point we were in a ruch to come up with some internal gun locks. We generated drawings for a half dozen ideas and filed for patents on them. Some of the ideas were insane, but they blocked other companies from traveling that path without paying a fee.

 

[brickeyee]

" How does a fellow get his hands on these? Write a nice letter to the DOD?"

Do a search for them online. At least some are available free, others for $.
I had a site with some available but cannot find the link. Sorry.