Firefighter's firing over racial insult is upheld

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheeBadOne

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2002
Messages
2,217
Location
Nemo sine vitio est
Copyright 2003 Times Publishing Company
St. Petersburg Times (Florida)
September 26, 2003 Friday


The controversy over the fire lieutenant's words created a chain of events that led city leaders to work toward a citywide climate of tolerance.
LARGO - An independent arbitrator has upheld the city's decision to terminate a fire lieutenant for making a racial slur last year.

Largo fire Lt. Jeannine Horton was fired in November 2002 after she confessed to making remarks in front of firefighters that included the words, "I hate n------." The local firefighters union filed a grievance on her behalf. A hearing was held in June, and the arbitrator's decision siding with the city was released this month.



Horton's remark touched off a chain of events in Largo that made city leaders promise to promote a citywide climate of tolerance.
Horton's remark came to light about the same time a fair-housing survey was released that showed racial discrimination in Largo, and soon other city employees came forward with accusations of racial harassment.

As a result, City Manager Steve Stanton set up a plan to improve diversity and open a community dialogue. And Fire Chief Caroll Williams sent out a warning that discrimination in his department would not be tolerated.

Largo leaders looked at ways to honor Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and Commissioner Charlie Harper proposed a human rights ordinance, which, by including protections for transgender people, would have made it one of the broadest in the state.

In the year since, Largo has not undergone a metamorphosis, but there is evidence of change.

The Fire Department has offered jobs to African-Americans under a revamped hiring process aimed at increasing diversity. A committee is planning a memorial to honor King, the slain civil rights leader.

And while the ordinance failed in August, the city is considering an internal antidiscrimination policy.

Local union president Timothy Baker said the union respects the city's policy of zero tolerance, but in Horton's case the treatment was unfair. Horton, 40, was an 18-year employee with an exemplary record, he said.

"She was fired for a use of a derogatory word that was not directed at any one individual or group. It was taken out of context," Baker said. "We're disappointed, obviously."

But city leaders felt vindicated by the arbitrator's decision.

Assistant City Manager Henry P. Schubert said it made clear that city workers, especially those involved in public safety, cannot show bias against any group.

"The public needs to be confident that we're going to treat everyone equally and fairly and when anyone does anything to compromise that, that's a serious issue."

Williams, the fire chief, agreed, but said there were no winners in this situation.

"The bottom line is that we can't tolerate that behavior. And we serve a diverse group of people and it's important that we not tolerate that in any form or fashion," Williams said.

City Commissioner Charlie Harper said the decision will not prevent future situations of racism.

"I think things will continue to happen because some people just don't get it, and quite frankly they need to move on if they don't get it," Harper said. "The world is changing rapidly, and it's not changing in the direction of bigotry."

Horton, who now is employed as a lieutenant with Estero Fire Rescue, could not be reached for comment.

When questioned by fire administrators last year, Horton said that she didn't believe the word she used was a racial term and that she used it to describe bad people of any race, nationality, sex or creed.

She also told investigators the incident happened during a conversation with other Station 41 firefighters who used terms such as "towel head" and "lazy blacks."

During arbitration, the city cited several rules that it believed Horton had violated, including those that prohibit profane and abusive language and require courtesy in dealings with subordinates and associates.

The city also maintained that her actions damaged the credibility of the department as well as the city. The term "hate," officials argued, was more significant than the slur itself.

The union stated that others who used the same slur were not disciplined as strictly. One case it cited was in 1985 when a police officer who used the same word in front of several subordinates was demoted.

http://www6.lexisnexis.com/wpublish...Id=34&topicId=17906&docId=l:51775990&start=14
*********************************************

Not saying right or wrong, but the interesting question is where does free speech start, and where does it end?
 
If one hears 'African Americans' (about as racist a title as any) use the word ****** in refrence to each other and them selves in music (for lack of a better word to describe rap/hiphop), in a non-derogatory fashion, is the word still a racial slur? Are there isntances of a black city employee being fired for use of the word 'w----y', "h----y" or whatever other epithets juvenile minds may come up with?

Martin Luther King Jr. was not a n-----r. I don't recall him having nice things to say about the word, and I am relatively certain that he did not in normal conversation describe himself as such. Negro yes, but not n-----r. On the gripping hand, I seem to recall certain...persons...such as Snoop-dog refer to himself and others in that fashion.

If a white person uses the word ******, it is racist, and if a black person uses that word, it is not?

Or am I making the mistake of applying a bit of reason to a situation again?
 
Liability. If said Lt. was still employed and conducted an act of racial discrimination, the victim will own the city. What we don't know and won't know is the other material in the Lt.'s personnel record. If he was already disciplined for it in the past, the termination will easily be upheld at arbitration. Other elements we don't know is whether the city has a progressive discipline policy, a no-tolerence policy or at-will employment.
 
KC

You are totally correct. Whites are disallowed using the word "******" and are relegeted to using the alternative "N word". I personally don't like the term; and I once lost a job because I told my boss not to use it in my presence. Blacks use the term like it is old home week; but Whites are racist pigs if they so much as look it up in the dictionary.

In the mean time, Blacks using the terms Whitey, Honkey, Cracker, Yakoos (sp?), etc are just expressing "Black rage" over 400 years of slavery; which none of them have ever experienced short of being recent Sudanese immigrants.

The NAACP can have a racist organization that seeks to elevate one group of Americans over another and they are a "benevolent" group. David Duke -- an admitted racist and certainly no friend of mine -- starts an organization called NAAWP and he is decried as a bigot that seeks to elevate one group of Americans over another.

The denial of openly racist groups, like MECHA, The "New" Black Panthers, et al, that they ARE racist organizations is laughable. MECHA has this slogan that, if it were used by the KKK, would be branded racist, divisive, and insensitive. They -- "they" being all non-Caucasian groups -- get away with these actions because they are a vast voting block and everyone wants them for nothing more than their vote.

America has become factionalized -- Balkanized as it were -- by politicians in their quest for those votes. The Democratic Party has, literally, re-enslaved the Black population and have become the new Massah's on the American Plantation. They bought Black votes with promises yet to be fulfilled; yet Blacks continue to vote as a Democratic block at the insistence of their "leaders".

The politicians have further Balkanized America through their pandering legislation which pits races and factions of Americans against the others. This Balkanization goes something like this:

Imagine, if you will, that these factions are a totem. At the bottom of the totem is a White Heterosexual Christian male with no disabilities. At the top of the totem is a Black female Homosexual Athiest who is disabled. If you doubt this analysis, simply name one -- just one -- local, county, state, or federal program that is directed toward White male Heterosexual Christians with no disabilities. You can't. Simply change any one of those five criteria, however, and there are programs galore.

So let's examine who wields the power and why.

Women now outnumber men and are the most powerful faction by sheer numbers.

Minorities are the second most powerful faction with Blacks wielding the most power among them. This is because they have the most effective and vocal leaders. That vaunted position won't last, however.

The next most powerful faction are the religions with the Jews wielding the most power; but the Atheists are quickly gaining in influence and, in some cases, wield more influence. The Jews are still gleaning power from the Holocaust (as they should, lest we forget) and the Atheists can knock any religion with impunity -- especially Christianity. In the aspect of politics, however, Atheists wield Constitutionally mandated power granted by activist judges while the Jews hold no such mandate -- thus the Atheists' position at the top of the totem and the most points for religion.

The Homosexual movement comes next as they are vocal, visual, and they also have effective leaders.

Lastly comes the disabled as they are not as numerous, vocal, or represented. Yes, they got sidewalk ramps, parking places, and lower light switches but most people feel that they have been appeased.

So where do you score on the totem? I have weighted each faction or sub-faction on a Binary scale (start with 1, double it, and keep doubling each subsequent result). This prevents any two combinations of factions from scoring the same score thus assuring your unique position on the totem. Here are the scores. Simply add together your faction scores.

If you are not disabled, your score is 0

If you are disabled, your score is 1

If you are Heterosexual, your score is 0

If you are Homosexual, your score is 2

If you are a Christian, your score is 0

If you are a non-Christian, other than Jewish, your score is 4

If you are Jewish, your score is 8

If you are Atheist, your score is 16

If you are White, your score is 0

If you are a minority, other than Black, your score is 32

If you are Black, your score is 64

If you are male, your score is 0

If you are female, your score is 128

My score is 0 as I am a White (0) male (0) Christian (0) Heterosexual (0) with no disabilities (0).

My wife's score is 160 as she is a female (128) Mexican/Yakima Indian (32) Heterosexual (0) Christian (0) with no disabilities (0).

How do you score?

It does make one wonder if the subject of this thread had been a Black that said a disparaging remark about Whites if the result would have been the same. Basically, Ms. Horton just didn't have enough faction points to prevail.
 
The best part about that story is that the firefighter is (apparently) a white female. So one minority is trumped by another. Y'a gotta love it when that happens...
 
Ah yes, Semantics in Action. As long as you are not Anti-Semantic and conform to the proper lexical of the day, in the proper context, with the proper group hearing and approving of your chosen uttering... you're good to go.

"Nigga" when spoken by a person of color to another does not carry the same "dynamic symbolism" of "******" when spoken by a person of a different color and referencing all persons of color in a derogatory fashion.

But then, (and here I go making an assumption) we all know that and carefully choose what sounds come out of our mouth based on who is nearby. Or we should.

I have read of people being fired from their jobs for using the word "niggardly" in the proper context.

I understand that certain groups of people have serious trouble with Mark Twain's two tomes Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn being used in a classroom setting due to the language of the day contained therein.

Even Robert Ruark's writings of Africa contain the dreaded "K" word (kaffir) which, I gather, has the same negative connotation as the horrific "N" word.

I have also read that a recent major double homicide trial was successfully turned on the use (or lack) of the "N" word (just ask Mark Furman).

Language, especially the American/English version, is an evolving phenomena, to be used and abused by all, both written and spoken.

The case in point of said female firefighter's use of word shows poor use of brain/mouth. One should tread lightly when denigrating a group at large. It can cost you your job or sometimes, even your life. The "race" card will beat the "gender" card every day of the week in the poker game of life.

Adios
 
I started this thread and appreciate the discussion it has generated. The one question I'd like to ask is this.

1) Did the punishment fit the offense?
 
"She was fired for a use of a derogatory word that was not directed at any one individual or group. It was taken out of context," Baker said. "We're disappointed, obviously."


:confused:

QUESTION: So, how does the word "******" NOT refer to a group?

ANSWER: Anytime a union wants to protect an employee from firing, truth goes out the window.


I have no problem with firing an employee for making such a remark, especially if they are in a leadership position. If I owned a company and one of my managers did the same I would make sure to fire them PERSONALLY and dare them to sue me over it. But the rest of it is pure garbage.



It does make one wonder if the subject of this thread had been a Black that said a disparaging remark about Whites if the result would have been the same.



Ah, that's the beauty of doing the right thing. If you fire ALL the racists, it's really hard to make a lawsuit out of it. In this case, if some black supremicist utters a racial slur and they fire him for it, we all know the black activists will raise a stink. Which can be quite effectively thrown back in their racist faces, if someone has the juevos to do so.

Don't hold your breath waiting for that.
 
We had a case a couple years ago where during a moment of horseplay, the rookies were asked to stand up and sing a song. One unfortunate person sang a popular rap song, which was originally done by a black artist. Since this popular song heard many times a day on radio and TV Video music channels included the dreaded word, this person was fired. He later successfully won his suit and was re-hired.


"Anytime a union wants to protect an employee from firing, truth goes out the window."

This has not been my experience. As 4v50 Gary mentions, the city and the union are bound by their contract. If the disciplinary proceedure set forth in the contract was followed, no problem. Our union has successfully fought several terminations for employees that were not desirable employees. Neither union nor management wanted these people working there, but the union had to fight the termination because management didn't follow the disciplinary proceedures laid down in the contract. The union was obligated to fight the ruling and in addition it was in their best interest to do so because if the contract is not adhered to, then it has no value. The union officals basically told management that they would both like to get rid of these guys, and if management would only follow the terms they agreed to, they could. But, they chose to try and make up the rules as they went along, which will not hold up to arbitration or to the courts.
 
I've started checking the "other" box on forms where it asks for my race and writing in "Northern European American."
{/QUOTE]

I prefer Trans-Ethenic(sp?), but you point is well taken.

Jim
 
TheeBadOne
I have a very good job in general. The vast majority of the employees want to do the best job they can. They want the people they work with to be as good as they can be. They honestly want to provide the best service possible. People are proud to work here and realize that the actions of each one of us reflects on the others. Since the union is made up of these employees, we have a pretty good union.
 
If a white person uses the word ******, it is racist, and if a black person uses that word, it is not?

She said; "I hate *******".... That's not just using the word in a back-slapping reference to a black friend over beers or something. She was out of line and lost her job - I'd have fired her butt as well.

Keith
 
This person wasn't fired for his racist comments.

"(I would) never submit to fight beneath that banner (the American flag) with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."
-- Robert Byrd In a 1947 letter to the West Virginia state senate
"There are white *******. I've seen a lot of white ******* in my time. I'm going to use that word. We just need to work together to make our country a better country, and I'd just as soon quit talking about it so much."
-- Robert Byrd March 2001 on Fox News
 
When I was in high school in Los Angeles, I was informed that the N-word, (the five letter one that ends with an 'a', not the six letter one that ends with 'er') is and acronym for Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished. And white people don't know the real meaning, that's why it's offensive.

:rolleyes:
 
The Birth of a Nation?

What century are we living in?
I have the distinct feeling of deja-vu, Reconstruction? Again?
 
No one who wasn't there really knows the specifics of the incident, but I know she is not the first person to lose their job for using that word.

You gotta know that in today's PC climate you cannot use use that word in general company if you are not African American.

May not be right, but that's the way the leftists want it, and they've had their way since 1965.

Personally, I ride the subway and hear it used every day by African Americans, both as a salutation and a derogatory term. Makes me cringe every time.

I believe someone just wrote a book about the history/relativeness of this term.
 
Largo fire Lt. Jeannine Horton was fired

The employer sets the rules for the employee- you don't want to play by the rules, you have no right not to be fired IMHO.



city leaders promise to promote a citywide climate of tolerance.

Liberal PC bull@@@@.

Commissioner Charlie Harper proposed a human rights ordinance, which, by including protections for transgender people

:barf: :barf: :barf:

Oh yes we need more laws stating how people should think and feel, and taxpayer dollars to implement them.:rolleyes:



She was fired for a use of a derogatory word that was not directed at any one individual or group. It was taken out of context

How do you take "I hate *******" out of context?:scrutiny:

The Fire Department has offered jobs to African-Americans under a revamped hiring process aimed at increasing diversity

I had to attend "diversity" training at work. The entire staff of over 2,000 employees was forced to attend- being Federal employees this was done on the taxpayers dime, and apparently was done agency wide. It was the most PC bull crap I've ever experienced and lasted 3 HOURS. This nonsense cost taxpayers millions of dollars- what a freakin' joke.:cuss:

This "diversity" business must be worth billions- has anyone ever studied this? Has there been any kind of study to show that "diversity" what ever the h&ll it's supposed to be actually PAYS OFF in some real tangible way, other than soothing the feelings of race baiters and liberals? If I own a trash removal company- what tangible benefit is there for me having 10 employees 3 of which are black, or Asian, or Eskimo as opposed to all white, or all black or all Asian. My guess- ZERO-ZIP-NADA. Sure it's wrong to discriminate, and discrimination based on race or other similiar criteria is against the law- but this forced "diversity" nonsense in employment, government, university seems like horse dung to me.

And we're all footing the bill.:fire:
 
"The employer sets the rules for the employee- you don't want to play by the rules, you have no right not to be fired IMHO."

I doubt this is the case. As I attempted to state in my previous post, the rules are pretty much negotiated between union and management. The vast majority of Fire Departments are union. The union contract doesn't cover every possible situation of employee relations, but the firing proceedures will be well covered.
 
I doubt this is the case

No, you are probably right that the Mafia, um, er I mean union probably would make it impossible to fire her or anyone else.

I was speaking philosophically.
 
Before you start flying off the handle, think. Emotional name calling usually doesn't work out.

"No, you are probably right that the Mafia, um, er I mean union probably would make it impossible to fire her or anyone else"

Wrong. The fact is that the person was fired.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top