First Handgun: Two Very Different Choices (9mm v 357)
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Paladin38-40
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Revolvers rule
I am an avid S&W revolver fan but given your choices here is one more plug for the Ruger GP100. You can get after market grips to fit your hand if desired. If you go with the 4" barrel rather 3" the difference in concealment will be negligible. The larger adjustable sights will allow you to take advantage of the versatility of the the .357 cartridge and hit point of aim with any load you choose. Also the the larger sights are easier for your eye to pick up than the small fixed sight on the 3" model.
I am an avid S&W revolver fan but given your choices here is one more plug for the Ruger GP100. You can get after market grips to fit your hand if desired. If you go with the 4" barrel rather 3" the difference in concealment will be negligible. The larger adjustable sights will allow you to take advantage of the versatility of the the .357 cartridge and hit point of aim with any load you choose. Also the the larger sights are easier for your eye to pick up than the small fixed sight on the 3" model.
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Will_Power
Member
IlikeSA and Paladin - What are the specific reasons you'd go with theGP100? The 357 cartridge? The Ruger platform? What?
I say the GP100 because the weight of the bullet in the 357 can be much greater than the weight of the bullet in a 9mm. Buffalo Bore has some 180 grain hardcast lead flat nose rounds that sing. From a three inch J frame it is rated by them as going at 1300 FPS. The other advantage of the 357 is the ability to shoot 38 special through it, at a cheaper price than the 357.
The disadvantage of course is capacity, but I think that power makes up for it in the long term. With practice and a good speedloader, you can learn to reload a DA revolver fairly quickly.
As I mentioned before, I have a 3 inch GP100. It's a big gun, approximately the size of my 1911, with approximately the same weight. I also have an XD9SC, and it is my backup carry or carry in the summer when I want to go light(er) weight. With that said, when I am in the woods, the GP100 is my weapon of choice. The OP said that size or concealability wasn't a big concern, and that he wanted a full size gun. I just believe that if you are going to have a full size gun, you should have full size power, particularly for the woods. I think the advantages of a reload or magazine capacity cancel out in the woods with sheer power.
I still recommend a longer barrel though. They don't weigh that much more and the advantages in velocity and sight radius is worth it. I'd trade mine if my wife didn't love it so much.
The disadvantage of course is capacity, but I think that power makes up for it in the long term. With practice and a good speedloader, you can learn to reload a DA revolver fairly quickly.
As I mentioned before, I have a 3 inch GP100. It's a big gun, approximately the size of my 1911, with approximately the same weight. I also have an XD9SC, and it is my backup carry or carry in the summer when I want to go light(er) weight. With that said, when I am in the woods, the GP100 is my weapon of choice. The OP said that size or concealability wasn't a big concern, and that he wanted a full size gun. I just believe that if you are going to have a full size gun, you should have full size power, particularly for the woods. I think the advantages of a reload or magazine capacity cancel out in the woods with sheer power.
I still recommend a longer barrel though. They don't weigh that much more and the advantages in velocity and sight radius is worth it. I'd trade mine if my wife didn't love it so much.
NMGonzo
Member
I have owned many a gun through the years, and I am now the owner of a new to me sp101 in 3 inch.
I recommend it to anyone, since it fits most people.
I recommend it to anyone, since it fits most people.
sarduy
Member
go with the .357, that way you can use .38 in them too
I would recommend the 3" GP - I have the 3, 4, and 6 inch models and the 3" is the one I take with me the most in the woods. The velocity difference of my hand loads between the 3 versions are 1296, 1310, and 1405 fps. The bullets are 158 grain Hornady XTPs. As you can see, there is not much of a power difference between the 3 and 4". There is no adjustable rear sight on the 3" and it has a pinned (lower height) front sight, but it remains accurate (after all the barrel is straight). Plus in the woods you may be in a point and shoot mode.
Although you mentioned you were not now going concealed the 3" does hide better. With the GP's you have 3 grip choices from Ruger. The current choice is the Hogue grip (standard on their GP100s), but you also have the old style GP100 grip (sold on Rugers website as part # 70085) and you can also get the "medium" size grip which uses SP-101 inserts. The medium size grip was the OEM grip used on the 3" before the Hogues. It is the same shape as the full size but about lowers the height of the gun by ½" and the length by ¼". The "medium" grip fits all the GP100s and the Super Redhawks. I have attached a picture of my GP with the medium grips and black plastic SP-101 inserts. I also have large hands, but the medium grips fit very well. The medium grip part number (for the rubber) is T01010. The part numbers are at the back of the Ruger GP100 owners manuals (as pdf files on the Ruger website).
Good shooting!
Although you mentioned you were not now going concealed the 3" does hide better. With the GP's you have 3 grip choices from Ruger. The current choice is the Hogue grip (standard on their GP100s), but you also have the old style GP100 grip (sold on Rugers website as part # 70085) and you can also get the "medium" size grip which uses SP-101 inserts. The medium size grip was the OEM grip used on the 3" before the Hogues. It is the same shape as the full size but about lowers the height of the gun by ½" and the length by ¼". The "medium" grip fits all the GP100s and the Super Redhawks. I have attached a picture of my GP with the medium grips and black plastic SP-101 inserts. I also have large hands, but the medium grips fit very well. The medium grip part number (for the rubber) is T01010. The part numbers are at the back of the Ruger GP100 owners manuals (as pdf files on the Ruger website).
Good shooting!
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I would probably work backwards on this one.
If you are genuinely concerned about bears, a rifle is probably most appropriate. However, I assume that for some reason it is impractical. So then, if you are limited to a handgun, choose the one that is most appropriate for the job. I would not pick out a handgun that I like and then ask, "Will this do the job?" I would ask what the best gun for the job would be and then go from there.
As far as the big cats go, anything that is bear appropriate is cat appropriate although I can see why someone would choose an autoloader over a wheel gun for the added capacity.
A friend of mine found the .38 Police Special to be adequate for cats.
http://arizonahuntingtoday.com/desertrat/2008/02/07/oregon-jogger-shoots-mountain-lion/
If you are genuinely concerned about bears, a rifle is probably most appropriate. However, I assume that for some reason it is impractical. So then, if you are limited to a handgun, choose the one that is most appropriate for the job. I would not pick out a handgun that I like and then ask, "Will this do the job?" I would ask what the best gun for the job would be and then go from there.
As far as the big cats go, anything that is bear appropriate is cat appropriate although I can see why someone would choose an autoloader over a wheel gun for the added capacity.
A friend of mine found the .38 Police Special to be adequate for cats.
http://arizonahuntingtoday.com/desertrat/2008/02/07/oregon-jogger-shoots-mountain-lion/
frankiestoys
Member
IMO the Ruger GP is one of the best revolvers ever built when people say they are tanks
thats the truth !
Now as far as the CZ goes i cant comment on its merrits because i don't own one, but i do understand that they get high raves and are good pistols . I would by the Ruger first because it will last you a life time, ive traded and sold off more then a few autos but i will never get rid of the GP.
thats the truth !
Now as far as the CZ goes i cant comment on its merrits because i don't own one, but i do understand that they get high raves and are good pistols . I would by the Ruger first because it will last you a life time, ive traded and sold off more then a few autos but i will never get rid of the GP.
Wolfeye
Member
For a first gun, considering that it will be for the backcountry & that you have large hands, I'd recommend a .357 magnum. Here's my reasoning:
- it's easier to learn to use a revolver
- while .357 magnum & .45 acp get about the same performance, .357 gets better penetration, which is important for protection from wild animals
- it's very easy to add a revolver grip that will fit your hands, while autos usually leave you with fewer choices
Hunters prefer revolvers because reliability is of utmost importance, either for animal protection or for hunting. You want to be absolutely, positively sure that the gun will fire, and while new Glocks have an excellent reputation in this regard, I'd still put more trust in a revolver.
I'd say that autos withstand abuse better than revolvers, but revolvers can better withstand neglect. In my opinion, both modern autos or revolvers do pretty well in both departments, but each has its edge over the other.
For woods carry with a .357, I'd recommend a 4-6" barrel. 4" will capture most of the ammo's performance, but 6" will be easier to aim and might get you a couple hundred extra fps. Look for 180 to 200 grain hardcast ammo instead of lighter expanding ammo; a heavy, solid bullet will usually penetrate better. At the range, I mostly shoot lightweight .38 special hollowpoints. Shooting the hard stuff all the time gives me a flinch.
Both Ruger and S&W make excellent .357's. Rugers are a little heavier & tougher, while Smiths usually have a smoother trigger out of the box.
If I had my heart set on carrying a .45 auto for the woods, I'd choose a new model with the longest barrel I could find and load it with +p hardcast ammo.
Paladin38-40
Member
My answer to OP's questions
The .357 magnum is hands down more cartridge and more versatile than 9mm. The Ruger will give you 6 without a reload. There is nothing wrong with high capacity if all other factors are the same, but they are not the same. The likelihood of needing more than 6 .357's is remote.
FWIW I have 3 semi's in 9mm and I do not carry them in the boondocks. I carry an S&W 66 most of the time unless in bear country. In that case the extra weight of an S&W 29 is comforting.
You indicate concealment is not an issue at present but may become one. I carry the 66 OWB in a FIST pancake style and IWB in a Milt Sparks Summer Special. The extra inch of barrel on the GP100 will not adversely affect concealment. A square butt with large grips vs. a round butt with small grips can make a difference if using a light cover garment.
Best wishes in your quest.
The .357 magnum is hands down more cartridge and more versatile than 9mm. The Ruger will give you 6 without a reload. There is nothing wrong with high capacity if all other factors are the same, but they are not the same. The likelihood of needing more than 6 .357's is remote.
FWIW I have 3 semi's in 9mm and I do not carry them in the boondocks. I carry an S&W 66 most of the time unless in bear country. In that case the extra weight of an S&W 29 is comforting.
You indicate concealment is not an issue at present but may become one. I carry the 66 OWB in a FIST pancake style and IWB in a Milt Sparks Summer Special. The extra inch of barrel on the GP100 will not adversely affect concealment. A square butt with large grips vs. a round butt with small grips can make a difference if using a light cover garment.
Best wishes in your quest.
Papa bear, you need to read their disclaimer about how they measure the barrels on BBTI. The 3" barrel velocity you refer to for the .357 magnum is about the equivalent of a revolver with a 1.5" barrel. The 3" GP100 would compare to about 4.5" which would put velocity between 1500 and 1600 fps for the Corbon 125 or Federal 125 grain loads I suspect you're looking at. It is worth noting that they don't use a vented barrel though, so you probably won't generate velocities this high in reality. Frankly even their "real world" data seems fast to me though. I don't find much use for that site. Stephen Camp's site has some chrono data for the 3" GP100:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Range Evaluation - Ruger GP100.htm
Will_Power
Member
I've thrown an addendum onto my original post reflecting where the conversation's gone at this point now that you guys have made me realize that 9mm won't cut it out in the sticks. Although I've stated that here within the thread, there's folks just looking at my first post and commenting on 9 v 357, and I wanted to clear that up.
.357 vs .45 at this point, gents.
And for what it's worth, I"m open to suggestions on a full size, steel framed auto. Considering the CZ 97 at this point as I like the sway the CZ 75 feels in my hand. Sig's another consideration, but might be out of my price range. The CZ knockoffs (EAA, Jericho, etc) seem iffy to me based on bad quality rumors I've run into.
I'd prefer a DA/SA at this point, and am firm on the steel frame, so you 1911 and Glock fanboys better keep quiet!
.357 vs .45 at this point, gents.
And for what it's worth, I"m open to suggestions on a full size, steel framed auto. Considering the CZ 97 at this point as I like the sway the CZ 75 feels in my hand. Sig's another consideration, but might be out of my price range. The CZ knockoffs (EAA, Jericho, etc) seem iffy to me based on bad quality rumors I've run into.
I'd prefer a DA/SA at this point, and am firm on the steel frame, so you 1911 and Glock fanboys better keep quiet!
Hondo 60
Member
Seriously? I'd say both!
The .357 mag is a great choice.
Revolvers are just reliable.
You don't have to worry about failure to eject or failure to feed issues.
If you get a failure to fire, just keep pulling the trigger.
Although revolvers can break, they're a lot more reliable than semi-autos.
But on the other hand a 45 acp is a LOT of stopping power.
I would definately investigate the 1911.
There's a reason they've been around for 100 years.
Just my $.02 worth
The .357 mag is a great choice.
Revolvers are just reliable.
You don't have to worry about failure to eject or failure to feed issues.
If you get a failure to fire, just keep pulling the trigger.
Although revolvers can break, they're a lot more reliable than semi-autos.
But on the other hand a 45 acp is a LOT of stopping power.
I would definately investigate the 1911.
There's a reason they've been around for 100 years.
Just my $.02 worth
eldon, did you check the numbers I posted against the chrono numbers in the link you posted???? I thought not...
Now that I think of it, I would like to point out the typical gun forum hypocrisy.. I gave 1260fps average to a 3" .357 and sited "A" source. Then "another forum member" tells me I need to read the fine print cause my numbers are off, starts spitting out random numbers, then tells me to check out his source for the real ballistic data that gives a 1263fps average for a 3" .357..... This is why I can't spend much time in these forums......
I'm not saying the 357 less of a gun than 9mm by any means. But in a 3" .357 vs 4.75" 9mm the difference is negligible. Granted this is comparing the very best of 9mm ammo vs run of the mill .357 ammo. But with the CZ you will be getting 3 times the capacity and a WHOLE lot less muzzle blast. Muzzle blast is no big deal at the gun range (even kind of cool) but I doubt op will be hiking through the woods with ear plugs in. The MV curve of the 357 is the greatest between 3" and 4". Between the 2 guns op listed, I think the better choice is the CZ.
If the op asked which gun would be best for his need and didn't limit the selection to the two guns, I would choose a revolver in 45 Colt/45LC. A relatively low pressure round with alot of business coming out the business end. Great penetration, great cross section, little muzzle blast (relatively)
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thedogbone
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First: go to a range, rent and shoot anything you are considering.
When you've found some that you like, that will narrow your selection.
Assuming you are not biased to autoloaders or revolvers after firing a few different guns, here are some things to consider:
Of the two calibers you choose -
.45 is easier to buy in bulk and slightly cheaper in bulk
.357 has the possibility for more powerful loadings (for use in the woods against critters that want to snack on you), is slightly more expensive to buy in bulk, but offers you the option of plinking with .38 special (which is significantly cheaper to buy than either .45 or .357).
Of the revolver vs semi auto argument:
1 - There is no right answer to this question for general usage, only personal preference. When specific situations are laid out, one may excel over the other, but as an all around, it comes down to what you want in your hand.
2 - It is true that a semi auto will stand up to FAR more ABUSE than any revolver, but a revolver is much more tolerant of NEGLECT than a semi auto (ie run it dry, leave it dirty and a revolver will likely* continue to fire; semi autos are generally* not as likely to be 100% reliable under these circumstances)
*The exceptions being that if the face of the cylinder of a revolver is allowed to become so dirty that it contacts the forcing cone, you will have difficulty getting the cylinder to turn (this takes ALOT of neglect), and on the semi auto side, many of the newer designed semis - Glock, XD, M&P, Sig (I'm sure there are others) will run dry and dirty, but the risk of a stoppage in a mildly dirty dry semi is significantly higher than that of an extremely dirty revolver
If I were in your shoes, for the uses you've described, I'd go with the GP100 with a 4" barrel. But that's just me personally. You'll be doing yourself a disservice if you don't go to the range and test several guns.
When you've found some that you like, that will narrow your selection.
Assuming you are not biased to autoloaders or revolvers after firing a few different guns, here are some things to consider:
Of the two calibers you choose -
.45 is easier to buy in bulk and slightly cheaper in bulk
.357 has the possibility for more powerful loadings (for use in the woods against critters that want to snack on you), is slightly more expensive to buy in bulk, but offers you the option of plinking with .38 special (which is significantly cheaper to buy than either .45 or .357).
Of the revolver vs semi auto argument:
1 - There is no right answer to this question for general usage, only personal preference. When specific situations are laid out, one may excel over the other, but as an all around, it comes down to what you want in your hand.
2 - It is true that a semi auto will stand up to FAR more ABUSE than any revolver, but a revolver is much more tolerant of NEGLECT than a semi auto (ie run it dry, leave it dirty and a revolver will likely* continue to fire; semi autos are generally* not as likely to be 100% reliable under these circumstances)
*The exceptions being that if the face of the cylinder of a revolver is allowed to become so dirty that it contacts the forcing cone, you will have difficulty getting the cylinder to turn (this takes ALOT of neglect), and on the semi auto side, many of the newer designed semis - Glock, XD, M&P, Sig (I'm sure there are others) will run dry and dirty, but the risk of a stoppage in a mildly dirty dry semi is significantly higher than that of an extremely dirty revolver
If I were in your shoes, for the uses you've described, I'd go with the GP100 with a 4" barrel. But that's just me personally. You'll be doing yourself a disservice if you don't go to the range and test several guns.
Since you mentioned steel framed autos in 45, DA/SA format, why not look at a used S&W auto in .45? While I am not a fan myself, I was issued and grew proficient with one when I was a police officer. It is definitely worth looking into, given your parameters.
However, I still recommend the .357 vs the 45 for woods carry. I mentioned the high end Buffalo Bore ammo shooting a 180 grain flat point at 1300 fps from a 3 inch barrel, while a 185 grain .45 shoots at approximately the same fps. While that may sound similar, take notice that the 357 is a thinner round for better penetration at the same velocity. I still carry the 1911 for my primary in urban areas or while traveling, but the .357 is definitely still my woods carry gun.
However, I still recommend the .357 vs the 45 for woods carry. I mentioned the high end Buffalo Bore ammo shooting a 180 grain flat point at 1300 fps from a 3 inch barrel, while a 185 grain .45 shoots at approximately the same fps. While that may sound similar, take notice that the 357 is a thinner round for better penetration at the same velocity. I still carry the 1911 for my primary in urban areas or while traveling, but the .357 is definitely still my woods carry gun.
armoredman
Member
Oddly enough, Massad Ayoob referenced once a guy killing a bear in Alaska with a 9mm Taurus...the numbers on the top ammo come pretty close to each other in the popular carry calibers in terms of stopping power.
I carry a CZ, great gun, perfect fit for me, and I am sure the ammo will do just fine within the limitations of ANY handgun ammo. If I am tromping through the woods, I want a rifle.
BUT, for first time handgun owners, a good 357 revolver is a great choice as well, low cost 38 special practice ammo and full power magnums for self defense, or 38 special +P if full magnum recoil is bothersome.
CZ 97 is an excellent sidearm, but do you have big hands? The 97 is slightly larger overall than the CZ 75, might want to pick one up first.
I carry a CZ, great gun, perfect fit for me, and I am sure the ammo will do just fine within the limitations of ANY handgun ammo. If I am tromping through the woods, I want a rifle.
BUT, for first time handgun owners, a good 357 revolver is a great choice as well, low cost 38 special practice ammo and full power magnums for self defense, or 38 special +P if full magnum recoil is bothersome.
CZ 97 is an excellent sidearm, but do you have big hands? The 97 is slightly larger overall than the CZ 75, might want to pick one up first.
HM2PAC
Member
Why not an auto-loader chambered in .357RM?
Desert Eagle anyone?
Desert Eagle anyone?
If you go with .357 be sure and check out the energy levels with different barrel lengths. In a snubby it won't be much more that a 9mm etc. IMO a backwoods .357 needs to have 6 inches of barrel length.
.45 is a great round as well. Both will do you service.
IMHO, the revolver is the way to start out. A .357 will also fire .38's, so there is the "low recoil" option for target shooting and plinking. A nice wheelgun would be one of the 7 or 8 shot S&W double action models. If you just "have to have" a semi-auto, go up to at least .40S&W or even a .45 with a large cap magazine. I have all those and more often than not, am carrying the revolver in the woods. I have never had a stovepipe jam in my revolver. Never!
Old Shooter
Member
For black bears ang cougars I'd go for the .357 before the 45 acp. The 45 would probably do just fine but I believe you can get much more potent loads for the 357 to fit the four legged predators and they would do just fine for the two legged ones as well. Since you are a big boy you might want to consider a 44 mag, just a bit more oomph than the 357 and guns are about the same in size.
(44 just a touch bigger in some models).
(44 just a touch bigger in some models).
PokealypseNow said:
Hi PokealypseNow,
I'd get the .357 mag. Friend just bought a used pre-lock 686 for $400. They are out there. Plus you can shoot 38s. It is super easy to reload these cartridges. You WILL want to get a reloading press...trust me
earplug
Member
9MM
I carry, shoot and mess around with revolvers. Frankly they are harder to shoot then pistols.
Sure a S&W trigger is awesome firing SA. But, if your in a hurry DA is the way to go on a wheel gun.
The SA trigger on a CZ or other cocked and locked pistol is much easier to get hits faster then a DA revolver. Swat at the safety and pull the trigger.
Many competion shooters do very well with the DA to SA transition on pistols. I prefer the same trigger result each time I pull the trigger. Even a Glock is better for me then the DA to SA change.
On big game shot placement and penetration is the answer. A 9mm will do both.
I carry, shoot and mess around with revolvers. Frankly they are harder to shoot then pistols.
Sure a S&W trigger is awesome firing SA. But, if your in a hurry DA is the way to go on a wheel gun.
The SA trigger on a CZ or other cocked and locked pistol is much easier to get hits faster then a DA revolver. Swat at the safety and pull the trigger.
Many competion shooters do very well with the DA to SA transition on pistols. I prefer the same trigger result each time I pull the trigger. Even a Glock is better for me then the DA to SA change.
On big game shot placement and penetration is the answer. A 9mm will do both.
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