.357 v. 9mm

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OK, OK, I'm on the way back to work. Just one more THR post. Then, I promise, I'm on the way back to work. (Gun addiction? Me? No way...)

So, speaking of .357...since the 686 just consistently feels a bit too large for my hand, and I've read at least one thread today in which one member claims that the L/N frames are just too large for a .357, what are your opinions about this little puppy.

Note: 3.57 with a 3" barrel on a J-frame.

Or this one on a K-frame.

For some reason, I'm fond of 3" barrels.

Just like women: I tend to like them a bit smaller.

Nem
 
N870, a buddy of mine just bought a 2½" S&W 686+ 7 shot L-frame.

If you ever make it up this way we can all hit the range and you can try it out.

I have another friend who has a 3" S&W 65 K-frame. (with a damn fine trigger pull if I do say so myself)

You can compare them to our 2" J-frame.
 
Bear, thanks for the invite.

I'm moving into a new business space right now, and am overwhelmed beyond having days off for travel. I've got a couple of months of work to do to get the new space ready for winter classes beginning in January.

However, if I can resist the urge to buy a revolver until then - which I suspect I can, given that the 870P is first, followed by a .22 LR (CZ 452 Style, me thinks), then maybe i'll head up your way after the first of the year. Would be fun to hang out and shoot some.

As I remember, you're up around Puyallup somewheres. I'll PM you if I get the chance.

Best,

Nem
 
OK, let's talk about serious snubby revolvers

MillCreek said:
Be sure to come back to us when you want advice on buying a serious snubby revolver for carry!
Click to expand...
T'was the night before Thanksgiving, and all through the house... Oh, wait. Wrong holiday.

Anyways, my ship came in yesterday. The money I've been waiting on for MONTHS arrived. Today, I ordered my 870P. :) ;) :cool: :D :evil:

The gun store is looking for a source for my CZ452 Style (synth stock, nickel barrel), and I will order it next week.

So, time to revisit this revolver business.

I'll confess, when I started this thread, I was attracted to the allure of the magnum. I was lusting for the power, awed by the size.

But, since last I wrote here, I've been having some second thoughts about .357. I read something in another thread about the intense flash and bang of said caliber, especially for indoor use.

And, I keep reading and being reminded of the same thing: shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. I mean, I'm looking for an SD gun, not a duty weapon. I'm not going to be shooting through windshields. Do I really "need" a .357?

And when I fondle the 686 & GP100 at the gun store, I consistently feel they're just a tad too big for me.

So, I'm re-evaluating. I'm thinking it would be nice to add a revolver to the K9, to have a little variety, just in case TSHTF, twould be nice to have some extra options for rnds, etc.

So, I'm thinking about .38.

I've reread this thread, seeking information. Yes, I'm aware of the ballistic difference between 9 & .38.

But of all I read, it was Mill Creek's comment, quoted above, that caught my eye.

So, even though the thread is titled 9 mm v. .357, let's go this route for a while.

Let's talk about a serious snubby revolver for carry.

I'm not opposed to something that'll shoot both .38 & .357. But I'm thinking now that the former may be more my caliber than the later.

The SW 64 looks interesting. Then again, so does the 640. (Does that one come with exposed hammer? Is that what the "chief's special" is?)

Advice?

Nem

PS: Happy Thanksgiving all! Extra turkey with dressing, gravy & cranberries for me.
 
IMO, the .357 magnum is significantly more powerful than the 9mm. You're not going to find ANY 9mm Luger loads that can throw a 200 grain bullet at 1,200 fps....you will find a couple .357 magnum loads that accomplish this. Even at similar bullet weights, all things being equal the .357 magnum achieves higher velocity given similar barrel lengths.

.357 magnum Recoil.... can be uncomfortable to very uncomfortable in small framed snubbies (S&W J-Frames for example) .... IMO not at all an issue with medium or large framed revolvers. I can shoot practically any .357 magnum load in my GP 100s (3", 4", or 6" models) and control the recoil easily, with little or no discomfort.

My recommendation for .357 magnum revolvers would be the Ruger GP 100. Excellent grip (the GP 100 rubber factory grip soaks up recoil and feels ergonomic to me), durable, reliable, accurate, and user-friendly all are benefits I associate with the GP-100. Negatives to look out for vary from gun to gun, but some GP 100s can have mediocre triggers out of the box, and lately I've experienced some quality control problems with NIB GPs.
 
Surefire said:
IMO, the .357 magnum is significantly more powerful than the 9mm.
Click to expand...
Hey, Surefire, thanks for your thoughts. Appreciated.

Yes, I more than realize the ballistic differences between 9 and .357.

I understand the problematic recoil of the latter in smaller frames like the J's. (Well, I understand it intellectually since I haven't really fired one yet.)

But I'm undergoing a serious re-eval about why I'm thinking of adding a revolver. My mantra is SD, SD, SD, along with 'carry'.

I'm a small guy (5'11"+, 135-140), with small hands, so the GP100/SW686 is suddenly seeming BIG for me.

The more I look at them tonight, the more threads I read, the more the SW 640 strikes me as reasonable. I can use the .38 +P rnds mostly, and if pressed, or if I feel the need, it'll still eat .357. And the "Centennial" frame with fully enclosed hammer is beginning to make sense.

I'm going to see if my local gun store has one on Friday (closed tomorrow, T'giving). Funny that I've limited myself to the 4" barrels til now.

Again, MillCreeks comment about 'serious snubby revolvers' got me thinking.

Nem
 
Nema, if you are a reloader or plan to learn, one nice thing about a revolver is that you don't have to pick the brass off the ground out of the mud. (It rains a lot in western Oregon...) I've had a Ruger Security Six for years that has digested several thousand rds of both .38+p and full house .357 loads (I reload in volume...) I recently bought a Taurus M608. It sports 8 holes in the cylinder, not 6, has an excellent trigger (better than my Ruger hands down, and I'd say equivalent to my S&W 629 .44) a ported barrel, and excellent sites. One thing I noticed... The orange insert in the Taurus' front site is recessed, while the Ruger (and S&W) inserts are flush. With the sun shining over your shoulder, the Taurus recessed site stays focused and sharp, but the flush inserts blur. I was kind of stunned at the difference the first time I saw it. The M608 is built on their 44 mag frame, is comparatively heavy but has small grips, ported, and has almost no recoil (or at least mild) even with full power loads. And it is accurate. I can hit milk jugs with it at 50+ yards with it quite regularly. It can easily outshoot me.
 
For SD/PD, you cannot beat the utility of the 642. With it's enclosed hammer and lite weight, it is a natural pocket gun. You can carry the reportedly excellent 135gr .38 Special +P Speer Gold Dots (~$15/20) - or my favorites, the venerable 'FBI load', the 158gr LHPSWC +P, like the Remington R38S12 (~$21/50). The latter, from a 2" snubby, has a documented 'One Shot Stop' some 8% higher than 230gr .45 ACP ball from a 1911. It isn't real difficult to shoot from the 642, better with a slight increase in grip size (Hogue). You can, of course, plink away with some usual 158gr LSWC/LRN loads/reloads... don't expect a target gun, of course.

Now, if you want a 4" house gun, that 64 is ideal. It has a fixed sight - find a 67 for an adjustable sight. Better yet, find the new 619/620 - they are fixed/adjustable sight replacements for the 65/66 series - with seven shot .357 Magnum cylinders and the thicker forcing cone. They take the same grips as the 10/64/67 - all being K/L frames. You can shoot .38's until the cows come home in these revolvers - just clean the carbon ring in the chambers before going to Magnums. The 619/620 are 5/8" longer than the 64/67, weigh 1.5/1.9 oz more, have MSRP's $32/$37 more, and all share the partial lug look.

About ammo and it's 'effects' when fired indoors. Even target/plinker CCI Blazer 115gr FMJ is just supersonic (~1,100 fps from our range's chrono from my last semi - a CZ-75B.), so expect a significant 'crack' when discharged in a small room - possibly producing permanent hearing damage. Certainly, ball ammo will penetrate interior walls with aplomb... collateral damage is certainly possible. Producing a less damaging 'boom', those aforementioned 'FBI loads' chrono-ed 912 fps from a 3" 65 - and 995 fps from a 6" 66 at the range - so a 4" 64/67/619/620 should produce 940 fps - certainly a less effective source of 'collateral damage' as the first wallboard will destroy that LHP. I keep speedloaders so loaded for everything .38/.357 caliber in my home. My wife's HD revolver is a late model 2" 10 with those rounds loaded (I have a 2.5" .44 Special S&W 296.).

Stainz
 
Nem, given all of your "waffling" about caliber and size, I can't help throw one more possible choice at you: Taurus' 905 9mm.
H_905SS.jpg


It's about "j" frame size, and if the 605 I carried for years is any indication, it should be a very sturdy and trouble-free CCW gun. As a matter of fact, it's on my own "next buy" list.

Here's the link to it, at the Taurus site:
http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=905SS&category=Revolver



J.C.
 
If you are looking at 38 snubby's and like the bodyguard feature look at the S&W 638. It has a bodyguard construction(enclosed hammerless) but has a cutout in the center that allows for thumb cocking for single action shooting. The revolver also comes from the factory with two grips. One a simulated ivory smooth finish and one a larger black rubber grip. I currently own one of these and is my primary concealed weapon. I have owned and fired revolvers for a long time. It is hard to beat a J or K frame Smith. As far as barrel length and accuracy the only difference is the velocity gain per inch ,about 50-75 fps and accuracy gain by increase distance between sights. I think it is a phenomanon that older people can shoot shorter barrel revolvers better than they use to. My humble opinion is that these guys (me included) have become more disiplined in their shooting plus we are all going blind and the distant sights do blur.
Jim
 
Nematocyst-870 take a pick

Nematocyst-870, I am MUCH smaller than you, and I love my GP100 with 4 inch barrall, except for concealed carry since it is too big to hide on my body. I have a cold mustang .380 as one carry gun, and just bought a S&W640 .357 that I really love.

I think you'll find that the .357 from a snub wil kick more than a .45 in a large from gun...a lot more...or seem to anyway.

The best part of revolvers is they go boom when you pull the trigger, at least the second time (If gun is loaded)

The 640 is a hammerless design meant to be carried in a pocket and not get snagged on clothing. The chiefs special has an exposed hammer, and allows for single action firing (cocking the hammer, softer trigger pull)

Set your priorities, what do you want the gun for. A 4 inch .357 is about the perfect all around gun if you only have one. Many S&W's and Rugers are highly recommended. The S&S performance shop now sells a J frame 5 shot 5 inch barrel .357 with laminated color grips that fits my hand like a glove.....a really nice gun.

Good luck, remember, you can always buy ANOTHER one later *S*
 
Although I have mentioned it before in this thread, I am still partial to a 2.25" or 3" Ruger SP-101. The S&W Centennial or Bodyguard are also excellent choices, albeit a bit on the spendy side, depending on what your local shop is charging for them. These days, my most commonly carried snubby revolvers are either a stainless Taurus 650 (the Centennial clone) or a stainless or titanium Taurus 651 (the Bodyguard clone). It is not unduly difficult to find a stainless 650 or 651 for approximately $ 350 or a little less. All of my Taurus revolvers were manufactured in 2004, and I have been very pleased with the reliability, fit and finish. The trigger pulls are much like my Rugers, since both brands use a coil mainspring. Without additional work, a Ruger or a Taurus will probably never have a trigger pull like the Smiths of twenty years ago. I will say, though, that in shooting recent manufacture Smith J-frames alongside my Taurii, the Taurii trigger pull is pretty darn good compared to the Smiths.

In terms of caliber, I like .357 revolvers for the option of either .357 or .38. In fact, as I think about it right now, probably 75% of the time that I am carrying, it is a snubby revolver. Although each situation is different, as a middle-aged, middle-class healthcare executive living and working in a suburban/small city environment, not very different at all from Eugene, Oregon, I don't feel undergunned with this.

The titanium 651 weighs 19.1 ounces loaded with five rounds of Speer Gold Dot .38+p 135 grain JHP, fits neatly into a Desantis Nemesis holster (for the Glock 26/27; it fits better than the Nemesis for the J-frame) and rides nicely in a pocket. My stainless snubbies either ride in a IWB holster or the Taurus 650 can also ride in a pocket, although usually only a jeans or parka pocket. The SP-101s are a little bit too heavy, too large and since mine are not DAO, have too many edges to ride comfortably in a pocket.

Although all of my revolvers can shoot better than I can, I routinely train for reasonably rapid fire to COM out to seven yards. I figure this is going to be my most realistic self-defense scenario. Most of the snubbies are regulated to 158 grain loadings, and they tend to shoot a little low with lighter loadings.

As you continue to do your research, you will find just how many pistoleros with far more experience than I, tend to gravitate over the years to carrying a small snubby revolver. There are good reasons for this.

Best of luck in your search, and please keep us posted.
 
Just to summarize a bit...

Happy T'giving everyone. Hope all of you are having a great one.

Just before heading over to eat with friends, I'll offer up a big thanks for the continued help.

OK, I know I'm repeating a lot of what you all said in this post, but summarizing it in writing for myself makes a big-picture overview easier for me. After all, if it wasn't for me waffling on this, you'd have way too much time on your hands. :D

Jamie C. said:
Nem, given all of your "waffling" about caliber and size, I can't help throw one more possible choice at you: Taurus' 905 9mm.
Click to expand...
:D Yep, J.C., I be wafflin'. Funny, when I was younger, I tended to be an impulse buyer, which always cost me money in the long run 'cause I didn't do enough research on expensive items before I bought. Of course, they always drop in price by 30% as you walk out of the store.

These days, it's just the opposite: I sometimes go to extremes before finally making a decision, but it's usually paid off, because I rarely sell stuff anymore because it was the "wrong one". (Now, if only I could make that work with girlfriends. :rolleyes: )

{Speaking of, Marshall, can't speak for Depicts, but I'm a guy. Pure 100% hetero. I'm small because I nearly died as a child. I just never got big. However, if we ever meet, don't let my size fool you. :) As a 'little guy' in high school, i learned fighting tricks that allowed me to survive on the street. Never underestimate us small guys. :evil: }

Back to J.C's suggestion of that Taurus 9 mm: very interesting option. I'd sort of thought about that, but noticed most of the makers don't seem to make revolvers in 9 these days. I'm going to consider that since I plan to keep my K9 even if I get a revolver, having both use the same would make ammo purchase, etc, much easier.

On the other hand, part of my motivation for a second pistol is that I'm one of those looney SHTF/TEOTWAWKI prep types. I reason that if one ammo is in short supply "out there", maybe another common caliber could be found. Minor point, admittedly, but...

Tangentially, i certainly have nothing against Taurus. Even though I tend to like the S&W's and Rugers a slight bit more, I think Taurus makes a great gun. My first handgun was a Taurus .38 snubby. (Should have kept it of course, but got 9 mm fever and traded it in.)

With a nod in JMusic's direction re the SW 638, I'll confess I'm still waffling big time about whether a revolver would be .357 (AND, thus, .38 also) or .38 only. We seem to be having a bit of a disagreement about whether, given the same round, the snubby will 'kick' more than a longer barrel. I hear what Depicts is saying, but another member PM'd me with an opposite view: his experience is that his snubby kicks LESS than a longer gun, at least with 125 gr.

Any other thoughts on that? This is a relevant issue for me, being a smaller guy. I'm not "afraid" of recoil, but am aware that for a defensive gun, too much recoil makes getting that second shot off more difficult. I'd rather use a smaller power caliber with accuracy for a 2nd/3rd shot than a cannon that doesn't allow me to get #2 off accurately.

The slightly heavier weight of the SP101's in 2 1/4 & 3" barrels could be a small factor in that recoil.

Likewise, I've got to think through the exposed v. concealed hammer issue. I get it now: concealed hammer for pocket carry. I'll have to think through that a bit.

{I just noticed that the SP101 comes in both exposed and concealed hammer in the 2 1/4" snubby, but not the 3". Other than snaglessness {is that a word?} of the concealed hammer, is there any reason that I'm missing for having a hammer? Obviously, exposed hammer allows SA shots, but I've become such a DAO guy with my K9 I'm not sure I'd use it. Any thoughts?

No decision yet on the snubby v. 4" barrel either. Depicts & Stainz' points about the generality of a longer gun ring true, but so does JMusic's point about the benefits of closer sights as we get older. Yep, I'm there.

Stainz, thanks also for the heads up on potential ear damage inside a room from firing one of these. As an aside, which would be louder: .357 or 12 ga 00? (The latter will be my primary SD (where S = studio) weapon as soon as it arrives.)

Thanks, folks. Keep those ideas coming.

Nem
 
I had a Taurus 905 for a short while. The recoil with ordinary power loads was a bit more snappy than I wanted to shoot, so I sold the 905 thinking that a 38 would be better for me. I tried Hogue grips and Pachmayr compact grips on the 905, as well as the factory grips. the Pachmayr grips were the most comfortable for me.

After the 905, I bought a Ruger SP101 with 2" barrel. I can shoot .357 loads in it; .38's have less recoil than the .357's. I am not yet sure that I will keep the SP101. My thought here is that you may not like the recoil of .38, 9mm or .357 in a small revolver; I don't, but may be able to get used to it.

Smith & Wesson K and N frames are kind of large for my hands. The SP101 definitely is a more comfortable size. I probably will try Pachmayr grips on it. The factory grips are nice, but a little small for my hand.

Additional thoughts on the 905: mine worked just fine out of the box. The "stellar clips" that Taurus makes for it are easy to use in that it is very easy to load and unload them. 9mm ammo is very inexpensive. The 905 would probably conceal a bit more easily than an SP101. the 905 was made only with 2" barrels.

Tom
 
{Speaking of, Marshall, can't speak for Depicts, but I'm a guy. Pure 100% hetero. I'm small because I nearly died as a child. I just never got big. However, if we ever meet, don't let my size fool you. As a 'little guy' in high school, i learned fighting tricks that allowed me to survive on the street. Never underestimate us small guys. }
Click to expand...

Hope I wasn't perceived as being rude, I really wondered. I'm glad you're here today. Happy Thanksgiving.
 
Hey, I never said waffling was bad.... To me, it just means I need to buy one of everything I'm waffling over. :D

As for the ammo issue, and a SHTF situation, I figure 1.) I'd rather only have to scrounge up ONE caliber for 2 guns than have one out of two that I might not be able to "feed". And 2.) what do you really think the likelihood of NOT being able to find 9mm ammo really is, no matter what happens? Not like it's a rare, or hardly-used caliber, y'know... ;)

And concerning new manufactured 9mm revolvers.... I dunno what's up with their scarcity. At one time S&W and Ruger both made one. Now Taurus seems to be the only one. This is strange to me, considering how many people carry a full-size 9mm as a primary, and a J frame as a BUG. Wouldn't it make more sense to have both guns in the same caliber?

As for the recoil issue.... It's been my experience that smaller guns recoil more than large ones.... Due to weight alone, if nothing else. But the other thing to take into consideration with recoil and a small gun is the fact that the grip is usually smaller. This means less surface area in contact with your hand, and therefore more "pounds per square inch" than with a larger grip. This could make perceived recoil feel worse.

For the .357 vs. 12 ga..... I'm thinking the .357 would be louder, and harder on the ears, indoors. Could be wrong on this one though, having never set either one off while in a confined space. ( And I'd really like to keep it that way too. )

Oh, as for the exposed hammer.... I just like having the option of a SA shot, and think that the "bobbed" hammer guns look funny. But then again, I've always liked the S&W 640....
I guess it's just that the 640 was intended to be hammerless from the start, whereas the bobbed hammers just make me think "hack job".
One way or the other, all it takes is putting your thumb on the end of the hammer while drawing from a pocket or other cover to make a standard J frame "snag-free".

J.C.
 
wodad16 said:
if you are a reloader or plan to learn, one nice thing about a revolver is that you don't have to pick the brass off the ground out of the mud.
Click to expand...

I'm with you here. The only reason I bought my Taurus 617 is because of exactly that.

I was getting tired of picking up my 45 brass.

It turns out to be a pretty good buy. I am really happy with it. In fact, I like the 357 so much that I have just bought a Marlin 1894C to go with it.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all.....

-Pat
 
noise levels, Taurus 905 & SW .38's

DukeNekum, I see that was your first post, so let me be the first to welcome you to THR. :)

Newbies buy the drinks around here. Hmmm. Still early for me (I'm just up), so I'll take a double mocha latte (at the risk of getting slammed by certain members from Arkansas who can't stand members from the Pac NW who drink fancy coffee ... :rolleyes: ).

Second, that's a GREAT site on gun fire noise levels. Thanks much for it.

{We should consider starting a new thread in "general gun discussions" about this. I just did a quick search in that subforum on keywords "noise levels ear" and came up with ... not much. I'll search more later...}

For me, and the handguns I'm considering (actually, I already own the 9 mm, and ordered my 12 ga Wednesday), these are the relevant data:

.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB

12 Gauge:
28" barrel 151.50dB
26" barrel 156.10dB
18 _" barrel 161.50dB

If anyone is a bit rusty on the meaning of decibel, check this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

I found this statement of interest: "Keep in mind that conversational speech is approximately 60-65 dB, and the threshold of pain is considered to be 140 dB. According to Dr. William Clark, Ph.D. senior research scientist in charge of the NOISE LABORATORY at the Central Institute for the Deaf in St. Louis, the damage caused by one shot from a .357 magnum pistol, which can expose a shooter to 165 dB for 2msec, is equivalent to over 40 hours in a noisy workplace."

And this: "With the introduction of MUZZLE BRAKES and PORTING, the risks of hearing loss dramatically increase." So much for the Taurus Tracker and other ported guns. :eek:

Hmmm. I think a 9 mm wheel gun or a .38 wheel gun is "sounding" better to me all the time. (Get it? :D )
__________

Actually, at the recommendation of JC and several other previous posters, I spent about an hour last night reading threads that popped up on a search for "Taurus 905").

They're getting mixed reviews. Some, maybe even most, owners like them, but there were several posts addressing issues with misfire & the "stellar clips" (also "moonclips"??? I'm not sure I understand the concept of "moonclip"...).

I also spent some time reading about SW642 chambered in .38 SW special. (Yes, I'm technically off topic now, since the thread is titled 9 mm v. .357, but I started the thread so I'm going to take the liberty to expand it a bit. :neener:

OK, since my mocha latte isn't here yet, I've got to go cook some coffee to drink with these two day old donut holes.

Nem
 
Nematocyst-870 said:
I'm a small guy (5'11"+, 135-140), with small hands, so the GP100/SW686 is suddenly seeming BIG for me.



Nem
Click to expand...

I'm a lot smaller than you (mostly in height), and I don't consider the GP 100 or SW 686 to be big, at all.

Having said that, if you need a small frame for "carry", as it sounds like you might, try the SP 101 3". It is more than small enough for carrry, but is IMO more controllable than the tiny J-Frames using full powered .357 magnum rounds.
 
Moonclips

A moonclip is a metal device that is needed to use rimless cartridges in some revolvers. I have attached a photo of a loaded and an unloaded moonclip of the type used for Smith & Wesson revolvers. The Taurus "stellar" clips accomplish the same purpose, but use a series of radial arms or fingers that are attached to a central hub.

Tom
 

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