First post and .45 setback

[uofaengr]

Hello, first post here. Been a member on a few other forums, but burned out from the sparring and nonsense on other boards, and I look forward to contributing on what appears to be a cleaner and more well-rounded forum.

What brings me here is that I've been reloading for a few months now, only .45 ACP right now, on a Lee Classic Turret Press. Have tried plated, coated lead, and FMJ, and have decided to stick with FMJ for now and is what I bulk load with mixed brass.

My question involves setback. I recently read about concerns with setback using RP and other thin wall brass so I decided to pick out a few RP reloads along with a couple PPU reloads since they also seem to flare and go through the dies almost too "easy" and chamber them in my Dan Wesson Specialist. My pet load is 5.6gr HP38 at 1.260". The RP loads setback on a single chambering up to .007"-.008". I think the PPU setback somewhere between .003"-.005". Also tried S&B, Win, and Federal and experienced no setback, but on a couple maybe even an OAL lengthening of .001".

From what I've gathered, setback is more of a function of the sizing die and neck tension than crimp, and that some people think RP brass really isn't suited for .451" FMJs. Conversely, I've read some longtime reloaders say that .008" of setback in .45 is nothing to worry about. In your opinion, if you're just chambering these rounds one time and shooting, would you even worry about this amount of setback? If so, would slightly tightening the crimp do any good at all without overcrimping thicker brass? My Lee FCD is setup per the instructions for a light crimp, and pulling a bullet doesn't even really show any crimp marks on it. I've shot several RP reloads at this point I'm sure, with no problems, but if there's something I can do better, I'm willing to learn.

 

[LiveLife]

Welcom to THR.

For higher pressure 9mm/40S&W, I prefer no bullet setback but for low pressure 45ACP, I would not worry as much.

For most pistols/barrels, bullet setback of several thousands of an inch is common, even with factory new ammunition.

You didn't specify bullet weight but since you are using 5.6 gr of HP-38, I am guessing 200 gr? If you are concerned about bullet setback and if your bullet setback averages are consistent, you could consider reducing your powder charge.

 

[Kp321]

Unless you are loading max loads, .008" setback won't make any difference with the relatively low pressure 45 ACP.
You are correct that set back is controlled with proper neck tension, a function of sizing and expander size. Taper crimp should only remove the bell from the case mouth.
Any problems I was having with RP brass went away when I switched to Dillon dies. If you are concerned, purchase a Lee "U" die. It will size RP and S&B brass sufficiently to prevent setback.

 

[kmw1954]

uofaengr Welcome to the forum! Simple people, simple rules and not a lot of sniping, Good family group to be a part of.

I have just started loading 45acp in the past year and am still learning myself. I load mostly Berry's or Xtreme plated but when I get down to needing to restock I will be looking to switch to RMR as the owner is a proud member and sponsor here and offers member a discount. You can find lots of reviews and remarks about them here to read. As for my brass I do take the time to sort my brass by headstamp just to keep things more uniform overall. I have loaded R-P brass and haven't noticed a setback but then I haven't really been looking for it. I do try the push test at the beginning of each session and then again somewhere in-between.

So now I will have to investigate this and see for myself if I too am getting this.

 

[uofaengr]

Unless you are loading max loads, .008" setback won't make any difference with the relatively low pressure 45 ACP.
You are correct that set back is controlled with proper neck tension, a function of sizing and expander size. Taper crimp should only remove the bell from the case mouth.
Any problems I was having with RP brass went away when I switched to Dillon dies. If you are concerned, purchase a Lee "U" die. It will size RP and S&B brass sufficiently to prevent setback.

I didn't even really know the U die existed until now, but looks interesting. Would you see any adverse affects on bullet seating, accuracy, etc with thicker walled cases such as Federal? I already get a nice, consistent bulge at the base of the seated bullet with all brass, more so with Federal and less with RP. Is the U die the die that one should actually be using for FMJs and mixed brass?

uofaengr Welcome to the forum! Simple people, simple rules and not a lot of sniping, Good family group to be a part of.

I have just started loading 45acp in the past year and am still learning myself. I load mostly Berry's or Xtreme plated but when I get down to needing to restock I will be looking to switch to RMR as the owner is a proud member and sponsor here and offers member a discount. You can find lots of reviews and remarks about them here to read. As for my brass I do take the time to sort my brass by headstamp just to keep things more uniform overall. I have loaded R-P brass and haven't noticed a setback but then I haven't really been looking for it. I do try the push test at the beginning of each session and then again somewhere in-between.

So now I will have to investigate this and see for myself if I too am getting this.

My first batch of projectiles was actually from RMR, and I plan on continuing to use them particularly when I start loading 9mm.

I do the push test myself when setting up the dies with a dummy round. Never done the 40lb test, but use a considerable amount of pressure on my bench and have never had setback although my dies (and dummy rounds) are setup with S&B or Win brass. I've found them to be a happy medium and consistent.

 

[stillquietvoice]

Welcome to the forum. I haven't loaded 45 in a long time but also never used rem or s+b brass. Mostly military surplus and once fired. Never worried about set back either

 

[ArchAngelCD]

@uofaengr welcome to the forum. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here to help you.

Not to worry, .008" he really nothing to worry about especially with the OAL you are using. It sounds like you are doing fine. As for crimping, as you know it does not good the bullet, it is a function of removing the bell from the brass. It again sounds like you are doing fine there too. If you want to double check it measurement should be 1.272" if I correctly remember. Check that before you use it.

I use a lot of Remington brass in many cartridges and never have problems. Sure it's thinner but if you load them correctly it's fine. (as you have seen) After all, they make fairly accurate ammo with that same brass in the factory lol.

Again, welcome to THR.

 

[Blue68f100]

uofaengr Welcome to THR... A wealth of knowledge on this site and very friendly .

I don't like getting any setback and strive for that. One of the reason I separate out the RP brass.

As others have said since the 45acp is a low pressure round it's not a major problem. You may want to check the bullets still left in the magazine after firing a few and see if any of those have changed. Take your measurements off of the ogive since it will give you a more accurate indication if setback is actually happening.

 

[mdi]

From what I've gathered, setback is more of a function of the sizing die and neck tension than crimp

Correct. When I first started reloading 45 ACP I used the "bench test" to check neck tension (pressed a finished round against my bench to see if the bullet was tight). I found no movements with my handloads using my Lee dies and mostly Blazer, Speer and Hornady brass with some occasional mixed headstamps thrown in. I had no problems so I didn't try to identify and particular mfg cases. I now use any brass I can find (and sort by primer size). I do not "crimp" my semi-auto handloads I just deflare with a taper crimp die. I can't testify about "set back" on one feeding, but years ago I did feed a few rounds 4 times to check and found very little (my notes are out in the shop and I don't have a number but guessing I'd say .005" to .008")...

 

[Galil5.56]

Howdy uofaengr. FWIW, the worst setback potential I have ever seen, was with Speer .45 ACP 230 grain Blazer Brass... Not even a hard push against a bench, and the bullet would slide inward. Plated shiny bullets seem slick, combined with shiny brass seem a combo for slip-sliding. I know some folks will add nu-finish polish to their walnut media, and I always figured this too could contribute to the problem. Always put off getting a C-H cannelure tool to do case/bullet cannelures, and maybe I'll get back on track to finally get it.

I use Dillon dies, and they seem to add a real nice amount of neck tension, along with a well sized expander that I have no issues with, even with R-P brass. Nice uniform seating ring in the brass sidewall = just the way I like it. I use GI brass with sealant still applied, and wonder if in some tiny way it helps to at least attenuate setback?

Always wanted to try a Redding dual ring sizer die, which I hear is really the cats meow. I'm not really a fan of the LEE FCD, but others like yourself seem to like them just fine. I have a LEE 'U' die in .44 Magnum, and it does exactly what they say it will... Really helps using lube with this sucker. BTW, nice classic 230 grain load... Right at GI'ish speed, nice and accurate with perfect functioning as you know well. Good luck.

 

[uofaengr]

I appreciate all the replies.

Sounds like so far I shouldn't worry a ton about this especially since I'm not chambering rounds over and over. Seems like investing in a U die for use on mixed brass might not be the best idea as it'd likely be more work on the brass and more work on me.

 

[Walkalong]

From what I've gathered, setback is more of a function of the sizing die and neck tension

Correct, if the sizer is tight enough, and the expander is not too big, you're good to go.

 

[forrest r]

A lot of things can and will cause setback. Myself, I don't want to see any setback. It only takes 1 extreme example for bad things to happen. Sounds like you need to break out the micrometer and do a little measuring/testing.

The 1st thing I'd be looking at is what is the bullet hitting to cause the setback to begin with. Is it the feed ramp, bbl hood, too long of a oal and hitting the throat of the chamber?

Then I'd break out the mic and measure several cases where the bullets base sits on your brass that's been sized. Then flare those same rounds you measured and re-measure them. You're going to find that your expander die doesn't flare the case deep enough to affect where the base of that 230gr fmj sits.

You're getting what's know as wasp waist on your reloads. Wasp waist is when you can see the profile of the bullet thru the case. If you are getting wasp waist your sizing die is clearly sizing the heck out of your cases. A u-die will only make it worse.

Two bullets with the same weight. The fmj (left) seats deeper in the case then the long nosed hp. A lyman m-die expander expands the case deep enough to protect the bullets base along with the step in the top of the expander makes a shelf in the top of the case that makes it easier to start the bullets seating strait in the case.

A lee factory expander next to a lyman m-die expander. If you look closely at the lee expander you can clearly see a ring in the middle of the expander ball. That ring is left there as a high water mark/where the top of the brass, case mouth stops at.


The "gold standard" for the 45acp. H&G #68 bullets sized to .452" seated to 1.250" oal with a .469"/.470" taper crimp. Those are wcc match cases that are thicker than commercial cases.
https://www.ammogarand.com/45mawawccwiu.html
What you don't see is wasp waist with the oversized bullets in the thick cases and a +/- 3/1000th's taper crimp. Most reloaders don't taper crimp but most ammo mfg's put a +/- 3/1000th's taper crimp on their 45acp ammo they sell.


What happening is your sizing die is sizing the heck out of your cases. The expander die for the lee 45acp set is not going deep enough into the cases. r-p cases are typically harder than other brass. When the fmj is being seating in the over sized hard r-p case it's swaging the bullet down. It might not be much but it all adds up. The harder brass does what's known as spring back. The r-p case has spring back while the soft bullet jacket does not. Bullet slightly smaller from being swaged in the hard over sized cases coupled with the spring back of the r-p cases ='s less neck tension. Then take into account there's a fcd being used and any pressure you feel when using that fcd die is actually magnifying the swaging of the bullet and the spring back of the case where the fcd swaged the loaded round down. The taper crimp is not solely there to stop bullet setback. But it does aid in stopping setback along with smoother feeding and a more even consistent burn of the powder.

Simple math:
Typical neck tension is 3/1000th's. The expander ball should be 3/1000th's less in diameter than the bullet your using. Your oversizing your cases if the measurement of the sized case is more than 4/1000th's smaller than the same case with a bullet seated in it.

Anymore I hone my sizing dies out to get to the brass being 4/1000th's under the seated bullet diameter of the sized brass. Why 4/1000th's? because 99* of my 45acp shooting is with .452" cast bullets. I do load jacketed bullets once in awhile.& still have the 3/1000th's neck tension when using the lee factory expander ball.

just something to think about. It has more to do with the harder brass than the thinner walls of the r-p cases. Anyone who thinks the r-p cases aren't harder then other brands should think again. Playing around making bullets out of 9mm cases, the top right bullet that's laying down is a r-p case. You can clearly see a buckle in the nose of the hp. When swaging bullets with too hard of brass you'll get buckling/dents/lines in jackets. The only way to stop this is to anneal the cases before swaging them into bullets. Those 9mm cases were annealed then ran thru 4 draw dies to get them down to .356" and then the 5th time they were worked is when the bullet was swaged. The r-p cases start out hard and work harden faster then other brands of cases


45acp bullets made from 40s&w cases. The 40s&w cases were not annealed. By looking at the bullet's hp noses it's easy enough to pick out the r-p cases compared to other brands. The r-p brass is harder and doesn't bend/swage well, springs back/doesn't hold it's shape and there a lot of distortion/hp pleats aren't concentric.

 

[Rule3]

How are you measuring .008"? What instrument?

A human hair is around .06 to .08 mm (.001"-003")

(Corrected from inches to mm)

Copy paper is around .004" thick

 

[uofaengr]

How are you measuring .008"? What instrument?

A human hair is around .06 to .08" (0.2mm) !!

Copy paper is around .004" thick

.060" is around 1.5mm which would be a pretty thick hair lol.

I use a set of digital calipers to measure.

 

[Rule3]

.060" is around 1.5mm which would be a pretty thick hair lol.

I use a set of digital calipers to measure.

Yes, indeed it would be a thick one!

Sorry my error. should have been mm (damn metric system!)

My point, is you are splitting hairs Setback of course is not a good thing but minutia?
How many rounds were measured? are your calipers that accurate to .001"? depends on how had you squeeze them. Is every bullet seated exactly the same?, every bullet measure to within .001"?? All the brass been reloaded the exact same amount of times??
You stated "I think the PPU setback somewhere between .003"-.005".
Yet the RP is exact measurements???

 

[uofaengr]

Yes, indeed it would be a thick one!

Sorry my error. should have been mm (damn metric system!)

My point, is you are splitting hairs Setback of course is not a good thing but minutia?
How many rounds were measured? are your calipers that accurate to .001"? depends on how had you squeeze them. Is every bullet seated exactly the same?, every bullet measure to within .001"?? All the brass been reloaded the exact same amount of times??
You stated "I think the PPU setback somewhere between .003"-.005".
Yet the RP is exact measurements???

It's all good, I knew what you meant.

Yes, I probably am splitting hairs, and have never even tried chambering factory loads to see how much they might setback. But with the knowledge on this board, I was wondering if there was something I could do better, specifically the crimp. And yes, there probably is some slight variation between bullets. I've been using primarily Armscor FMJs.

 

[zeke]

Would consider making couple dummy rounds without any powder/primer and loading by releasing slide from lock back to check for set back. Last time i measured quality defensive 45 acp rounds, Federal was only one with no setback and the others had minimal (.001-.003). As you indicated not all jacketed bullets are the same dia, or even the dia they are listed at. Win 230 fmj being an extreme example last time i measured one, as they were closer to .450 than .451. As previously indicted .008 does not appear to be that bis a deal, unless you are at the upper end of the pressure range and ensure you only physically load it in the pistol once.

Last time i cared to look, RP brass is thinner, shorter and and seems to loose much of it's elasticity after one firing. Am another one that separates the Rem out for jacketed loads or when consistent crimp is needed, unless you set the crimp die to crimp the rem cases, which may over crimp others. Will use Rem brass for soft lead loads that hav e adequate bearing surface, but only after using a Lee u die. With todays newer coated bullets, another possible consideration is the increased dia of some.

If using a u die to increase interference fit, you likely need a reduced dia expander. And it is tougher to seat bullets straight with increased interference fit. A little "wasp waist" does not alter the rounds function, and would seem to indicate a tighter fit. Of course there are various degrees of this, and there are always exceptions and differing ways of doing things. For all my jacketed loads in 9mm, 40 sw and 45 acp am striving for absolute minimal setback. Especially with full powered loads.

 

[mdi]

Lots of good info, but if I were having this "problem" I would revisit my reloading methods. Making sure the sizing die id adjusted correctly. Using my dial calipers and micrometers I would go through each step of my reloading, measuring critical dimensions along the way. Post sizing neck ID measurements should be at least .002"-.003" under bullet diameter, better if a bit smaller. If you use an M die, measure neck ID. If you flare, measure neck ID and note depth of flare. Measure the bullets used with micrometers so you will know for sure the diameter and neck to bullet fit. Forget the term "crimping" and rethink the process as "deflaring" (too much crimp will loosen bullet/case fit). Back the taper crimp die way off and get the barrel of your gun out. Drop an uncrimped cartridge in the chamber, if it does not drop all the way in, add a bit more "crimp". Continue in small increments until the cartridge drops easily into the chamber (with a "thunk") and it drops back out by it's own weight. If all this didn't work I'd sort by headstamp.

I reload a bunch of 45 ACP rounds as I have three guns chambered for it, a Ruger P90 that is accurate and fun, an RIA 1911 that's a joy to shoot, and a High-Point 45 ACP carbine that's hard to put down and I often go through 300+ rounds at a session. I reload any brass I can find (purchased a few hundred "once fired" cases, some brass I bought as factory ammo 30 years ago along with some new Starline). I use lead, PCed, and jacketed bullets and my Lee dies and I have no "setback" problems.​

 

[Kp321]

Some concerns have been raised about using the U die in relation to overworking the brass.
As I said earlier, I use Dillon 45 dies which are tighter than Lee and RCBS but not as tight as the Lee U die. I do use the U die for 9mm and have not seen any problems with case life. It does produce "Coke bottle" looking loads but they all plunk and function well so I don't worry.

 

[joneb]

I sort my brass by head stamp, I use the R-P brass for lead bullets sized to .452". Harder brass or work hardened brass tends to spring back more than soft brass.
When I'm resizing and come across a piece of brass that is easy to size I toss it in the scrap bin.
I use RCBS dies and use a light taper crimp that leaves a line around the bullet from the case mouth.
For 9x18 Makarov Sierra bullets were sized at .363" I contacted RCBS and they sent me another expander plug. I chucked in a drill press and turned it down to .360"
.008" is the thickness of two dollar bills. I have decreased set back by using a shorter COL, I load the Xtreme 200gr RN plated at 1.260" this COL works well in my 45 acp's.

 

[ATLDave]

R-P and PPU are precisely the brass headstamps that have caused me setback woes. I have gotten setback on .45 R-P so bad that it causes feed problems, and setback so bad on 10mm PPU that it caused the only "excess pressure event" I've ever experienced (steel framed gun held together nicely, but there were some exciting splatter patterns from the lube getting blown out of every joint and crevice*).

Life is too short to spend it clearing needless jams, and as I currently have the number of fingers I hope to die with, I don't enjoy flirting with pressure spikes either. So I pull those aside. I was using the R-P 45 brass for my 625 moonclip rounds for a while, but I've decided the low bullet tension is contributing to inconsistent combustion.

Just sort them out. Put them in a ziploc bag, and give them to your friends that insist they have no problem with them.

*No, that's not a euphemism. I did not actually soil myself, though it was a lot more exciting than I care to repeat.

 

[Rule3]

Gee, we are supposed to look at the headstamps? I have been loading every headstamp from A to Z and those with symbols and or numbers in about every handgun caliber for some time.

Never have seemed to noticed a bit of difference.

Amazes me how the non preferred major brands of brass are able to function the first time and they sell new brass also???

 

[ATLDave]

Rule3, I’m glad you haven’t encountered those issues. Many of us have. I know my experiences are highly replicable. If you were in my basement, I could make it happen for you.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Welcome aboard sir. Only thing I’d like to add is all of the PPU brass I find hits the recycle bin. Haven’t had much luck reloading that brass.

Be safe.