Different manufacturers with different charges fired from different guns with different bullet types could all effect case sizes.
Are you having any malfunctions when firing?
edit: Your case length shouldn't have any effect on COAL.
First time loading .45 SWC
- Thread starter casper129
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Are you having any malfunctions when firing?
edit: Your case length shouldn't have any effect on COAL.
Alright guys, go easy on me here. I still have my Rookie status when it comes to shooting a handgun. I've only probably had about 500 rounds through my 1911.. and that's the first pistol I've shot. But here's what I did at the range today, just to test out my new loads. All at 15 yards...
This one is from my new SR40 I picked up on Saturday. First 20 rounds through the gun. I'm liking this little guy
This one is from my new SR40 I picked up on Saturday. First 20 rounds through the gun. I'm liking this little guy
I'm loading almost the same bullet. Mine is the IDP#1. The most variation I'm getting is about .005 in OAL, .030 is too much IMO.
My only guess is that your seating die needs to be cleaned or, as has been said, your operation of the press is inconsistent.
The no failures is definitely a plus though.
EDIT: There's room for improvement, but those groups aren't horrible by any means. Decent shooting.
My only guess is that your seating die needs to be cleaned or, as has been said, your operation of the press is inconsistent.
The no failures is definitely a plus though.
EDIT: There's room for improvement, but those groups aren't horrible by any means. Decent shooting.
Because case lengths vary. Measure them. You'll see there is prolly at least ,015" of variance. If you happen to set the crimp using the shortest case, then the longest case is going to get overcrimped. This is not a revolver. The case mouth has nowhere to go. It will dig into the bullet shank and stop the bullet from being seated deeper.
How do you fix this? You can trim the cases to the same exact length, or you can back off the crimp to only remove the bell from the case mouth. Or sort by case length.
But this isn't an issue here since you chose to separate the steps. Just back out the seater until it stops crimping. You should be fine after that.
Well, now that I know the seating die crimps in the same step, I will have to back it off and see if I can get it to work for me, to just remove the bell.. That will save me some time being able to eliminate that extra crimp die step.. If that doesn't work out for me, then I will back out the seater and do the separate crimp.
You guys have been a TON of help.. Thanks for taking the time to reply/educate me! It is VERY much appreciated...
You guys have been a TON of help.. Thanks for taking the time to reply/educate me! It is VERY much appreciated...
In your next batch load some up with 4.8gr or 5.0gr of 231. It is a real accurate load and they do like less power some times. Do you have a rabbit ear sandbag for rested the gun on for testing loads? I always use a rest when testing a load, then I know how the loads really groups. Once I find a load that has the accuracy I want, then I go freehand to develope my shooting skilld to duplicate those rested groups,(or attempt to). It'll come around in time .
Shoot that 1911 a lot, it's my favorite platform,adding another pair shortly.
). It'll come around in time .Shoot that 1911 a lot, it's my favorite platform,adding another pair shortly
.Alright guys. I went to clean my 1911 today. I think I found some leading in the barrel..
It was on the "high" parts and the "low" parts of the rifling. It was a lot worse, I should have taken before pictures.. but after about 30 mins. of scrubbing, this is where I ended up. Is that leading, or something else? If it is, what can I do to fix it? Could it be caused by the crimping issues discussed earlier in this thread?
It was on the "high" parts and the "low" parts of the rifling. It was a lot worse, I should have taken before pictures.. but after about 30 mins. of scrubbing, this is where I ended up. Is that leading, or something else? If it is, what can I do to fix it? Could it be caused by the crimping issues discussed earlier in this thread?
Yep, thats the devil,itself. Now to get rid of that probably will need bullets that are bigger than what you have. This is why I always recomend a person to slug their bore and then buy bullets that are a thou bigger, it mostly eliminates this. Get yourself some copper(not copper plated steel) chore boy.
I read about slugging the barrel, which I was going to do before I ordered bullets.. but when I decided I was ordering from Missouri, I noticed they only had rounds in the .452 diameter... So kinda figured, eh, what's the point?
LiveLife
Member
Glen Fryxell has an excellent chapter on leading with definition, cause, location, prevention and removal - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_7_Leading.htmcasper129 said:
Much more at the link - get a nice cup of coffee and enjoy the read!
Smearing deposit near the chamber end is often caused by gas cutting and bullet base erosion as high pressure gas leaks around the bullet while traveling through the leade/free bore and the liquefied lube is blown off the bullet surface and out the muzzle leaving the bullet naked. Using longer OAL will reduce the time the high pressure gas leaks around the bullet as bullet's bearing surface engages the start of rifling to build chamber pressure to begin the plastic deformation of the bullet base to seal with the barrel and reduce the gas leakage (obturation) which will reduce the smearing deposit near the chamber end. If you are using lighter target loads using mid-to-high range load data, softer bullet alloy (Missouri 12 BHN Bullseye #1 vs 18 BHN IDP #1) will help bullet base deform faster and decrease the gas leakage around the bullet and leading/smearing.
Walkalong has an excellent thread to determine the Max OAL using the barrel and the longest OAL that will work with your pistol/barrel/magazine reliably will not only decrease leading/smearing but will also generate more consistent chamber pressures for more accurate shot groups - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678
For these reasons I prefer to use tighter chambered barrels in my pistols when using lead bullets so the case mouth/case neck can seal with the forward most part of the chamber faster (note that some barrels may have wider chamber mouth but tighter forward most part of the chamber and some not). Sig 1911 TacPac barrel has tighter chamber than many other 1911 barrels and very short leade/free bore (almost none) to start building the chamber pressures sooner which will reduce gas cutting and smearing deposit near the chamber end. Lone Wolf barrels, especially for 40S&W, have the tightest chambers I know. This forces me to be more consistent with my reloading practices (more consistent amount of taper crimp, etc.) but results in less leading/smearing deposit and more accurate shot groups. YMMV
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Mr. BDS:
Those are beautiful chamber photos.
Mr. Casper129:
That's a Springfield barrel, isn't it? Something is not right. It's hard to lead up a 45 ACP. Do you have any Bullseye? I'm thinking a faster burning powder will bump the bullet up sooner and get it to seal before you get any gas cutting.
Instead of slugging the barrel, slug the freebore. It is the more important dimension of the two.
Those are beautiful chamber photos.
Mr. Casper129:
That's a Springfield barrel, isn't it? Something is not right. It's hard to lead up a 45 ACP. Do you have any Bullseye? I'm thinking a faster burning powder will bump the bullet up sooner and get it to seal before you get any gas cutting.
Instead of slugging the barrel, slug the freebore. It is the more important dimension of the two.
Alright guys, I read the article that Walkalong wrote.. and I tried to replicate what he did...
This is what I came up with -
This is an empty, sized *Line case in my barrel -
This is the loaded *Line case. OAL of 1.277 Crimp to .470
This is a loaded Federal case. OAL of 1.283 Crimp to .470
It looks to me like I will have to divide my brass and load them according to the case size?
Since the empty, sized *Line case would only sit as far as flush in my barrel, my optimal OAL would be at flush, correct? I don't see how it could go any deeper, even if I set my OAL shorter...
918v - Yes, it's a Springfield 1911. Only about a year old, and probably less than 500 rounds through it.. I have 231 and Longshot. Longshot worth a try?
This is what I came up with -
This is an empty, sized *Line case in my barrel -
This is the loaded *Line case. OAL of 1.277 Crimp to .470
This is a loaded Federal case. OAL of 1.283 Crimp to .470
It looks to me like I will have to divide my brass and load them according to the case size?
Since the empty, sized *Line case would only sit as far as flush in my barrel, my optimal OAL would be at flush, correct? I don't see how it could go any deeper, even if I set my OAL shorter...
918v - Yes, it's a Springfield 1911. Only about a year old, and probably less than 500 rounds through it.. I have 231 and Longshot. Longshot worth a try?
LiveLife
Member
No. First you determine the Max OAL using Walkalong's method to determine the longest OAL that the bearing surface of the bullet (for SWC, bullet shoulders) won't hit the start of rifling when fully chambered.
Next, you need to determine the working/Ideal OAL that will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine when the slide is manually released. This OAL is often shorter than Max OAL.
Once you determined the Ideal OAL that works for your pistol/barrel/magazine, then you conduct a full powder work up from start to max charge to identify charges that will reliably cycle the slide and then higher charges that will produce accurate shot groups with least amount of leading/smearing near the chamber end of the barrel.
SSN Vet
Member
what is that pink stuff you have taped to the PPM?
I have both the Pro Autodisk and the PPM, and though I much prefer the Autodisk, my PPM throws consistant charges without any "add ons".
Did you try tightening up the drum screw?
I quickly cycled those two rounds I had made up and the 1.277 seemed to feed better than the 1.283 (Granted, this was only 1 round at a time magazine) My rounds that I have made to 1.250 sit at the exact same height in the barrel as my rounds made to 1.277 From what I've gathered, if I can get the 1.277's to feed and eject properly, that should help decrease leading by sealing the bore faster, correct?
SSN Vet - Those are the Vibrating Rings that Trojan sells Tape them to the powder feeder, turn them on, and it gives vibration to it for a consistent measure.
SSN Vet - Those are the Vibrating Rings that Trojan sells
Tape them to the powder feeder, turn them on, and it gives vibration to it for a consistent measure.
LiveLife
Member
Yes. Longer OAL will reduce the high pressure gas leakage and promote faster chamber pressure development to reduce leading and improve muzzle velocities SD number (lower the better) which produces greater accuracy.
This is why many match shooters will load their match loads to longer OALs that their match barrels and magazines will allow.
But the Ideal/working OAL will often vary significantly between pistols/barrels. Many mil spec 1911s like RIA with longer leade/free bore will work well with MBC 200 gr SWC bullets loaded to 1.260" - 1.265" but my Sig barrel with almost no leade/freebore must be loaded to no longer than 1.245" OAL. Both OALs produce accuracy with no leading down the barrel and very minimal lead smearing at the chamber end. Few strokes with old copper bore brush wrapped with copper strands (Chore boy) and I have clean barrels.
This is why many match shooters will load their match loads to longer OALs that their match barrels and magazines will allow.
But the Ideal/working OAL will often vary significantly between pistols/barrels. Many mil spec 1911s like RIA with longer leade/free bore will work well with MBC 200 gr SWC bullets loaded to 1.260" - 1.265" but my Sig barrel with almost no leade/freebore must be loaded to no longer than 1.245" OAL. Both OALs produce accuracy with no leading down the barrel and very minimal lead smearing at the chamber end. Few strokes with old copper bore brush wrapped with copper strands (Chore boy) and I have clean barrels.
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Well, my next batch of 50 I load up I will load to 1.277 +/- .010 I will reset all my dies again and see what the OAL comes up to be again. Hopefully my barrel comes home cleaner than it did from my last range outing.. I will do what I did last time again, and do 25 each of two different loads using 231 again. It only took 40 rounds to lead my barrel this last time, so I will know almost right away if this did the trick for me.
Thanks again you guys. There are times I wait for a reply for DAYS before I get any useful information.. (Mainly on the DIYchatroom forum) You have no idea how helpful fast, information filled responses are!
Thanks again you guys. There are times I wait for a reply for DAYS before I get any useful information.. (Mainly on the DIYchatroom forum) You have no idea how helpful fast, information filled responses are!
OAL in excess of 1.250" with this bullet is too long. It may jam. Stay inside 1.225" and 1.250". Your case length affects the amount of crimp the die applies. The longer the case, the more crimp. If you set your die to apply a .470" diameter crimp with a .890" long case, then a .885" long case will not receive .470" worth of crimp. It will get less. Similarly, a .895" long case will get alot more crimp than you need. Understand that your Starline brass varies in length. If you are going to set your crimp at .470", then do do using the longest case in your batch.
But this has nothing to do with your leading issue. Longshot is way slower burning than 231. I think you need a faster powder. Else, Missouri casts these bullets using a softer 12BHN alloy which is better for low pressure target loads anyhow.
To slug your freebore, place a bullet on a hard surface, smack the nose with a hammer until the diameter increases, make a dummy round and tap it into the chamber. Then knock it out from the muzzle end and measure the freebore's imprint on the front driving band.
Your barrel's freebore should be .453" no greater than .454". If it's .454" then you have .002" of gap for the gas to cut through. You will not be able to obturate .002" of hard alloy at the pressures you are running. Maybe .001" but that still leaves a leak.
Gas travels at 7000 FPS. It accelerates to that speed instantly because it has almost no mass. This means it will leak around that .001" gap before the bullet starts moving. This is why bullet to freebore fit is important.
So, if your freebore is .454", use a .4535" hardcast or a .453" softcast bullet. If your freebore is .453", use a .4525" hardcast or .452" softcast bullet. The reason you can get away with a smaller soft bullet is because they bump up easier. You can run 12BHN bullets as fast as possible from the 45 ACP without any leading.
Also, mike your bullets. Just because the box says .452" don't mean they are. They could be .451" by mistake.
But this has nothing to do with your leading issue. Longshot is way slower burning than 231. I think you need a faster powder. Else, Missouri casts these bullets using a softer 12BHN alloy which is better for low pressure target loads anyhow.
To slug your freebore, place a bullet on a hard surface, smack the nose with a hammer until the diameter increases, make a dummy round and tap it into the chamber. Then knock it out from the muzzle end and measure the freebore's imprint on the front driving band.
Your barrel's freebore should be .453" no greater than .454". If it's .454" then you have .002" of gap for the gas to cut through. You will not be able to obturate .002" of hard alloy at the pressures you are running. Maybe .001" but that still leaves a leak.
Gas travels at 7000 FPS. It accelerates to that speed instantly because it has almost no mass. This means it will leak around that .001" gap before the bullet starts moving. This is why bullet to freebore fit is important.
So, if your freebore is .454", use a .4535" hardcast or a .453" softcast bullet. If your freebore is .453", use a .4525" hardcast or .452" softcast bullet. The reason you can get away with a smaller soft bullet is because they bump up easier. You can run 12BHN bullets as fast as possible from the 45 ACP without any leading.
Also, mike your bullets. Just because the box says .452" don't mean they are. They could be .451" by mistake.
LiveLife
Member
Try this.
Once you determined the OAL that works with your pistol, use no more than .473" taper crimp (.452" + .021") which will essentially bring the flare back to flat. If you are using FCD, I do not recommend its use for lead semi-auto caliber bullets as it may post size and reduce the diameter of the bullet and decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit as 918v posted.
BTW, OALs listed on published load data will not ensure they will work for your pistol/barrel/magazine. For any new bullet, reloaders must determine the Max/Ideal OAL individually that will work reliably with their pistol(s) before conducting powder workup.
I often load for multiple pistols so I use the OALs that will work in all the pistols.
Once you determined the OAL that works with your pistol, use no more than .473" taper crimp (.452" + .021") which will essentially bring the flare back to flat. If you are using FCD, I do not recommend its use for lead semi-auto caliber bullets as it may post size and reduce the diameter of the bullet and decrease the bullet-to-barrel fit as 918v posted.
BTW, OALs listed on published load data will not ensure they will work for your pistol/barrel/magazine. For any new bullet, reloaders must determine the Max/Ideal OAL individually that will work reliably with their pistol(s) before conducting powder workup.
I often load for multiple pistols so I use the OALs that will work in all the pistols.
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