First time to pull my side arm today

[Dbl0Kevin]

You know it truly amazes me that on a forum dedicated to gun owners rights whenever a thread like this pops up there is always a good number of people saying that the person who acted in self defense did something wrong or should not have employed a firearm.

As a LEO I can assure you that if someone is coming at me with a tire iron in what is clearly a threatening manner either on or off duty they are going to get drawn down on, and they are not going to get a warning first. You can talk all you want after you have the threat covered or the situation is diffused.

As far as calling the police and being the "complainant" that doesn't hold the magic status that some here seem to think. Just because someone calls 911 does not mean I take their word automatically over the other party. There have been numerous times when I have left a call with someone in the back seat of my patrol car whining "but I'm the one that called you!!" The fact of the matter is that a lot of people who call the police do so out of selfish motivation to use law enforcement as an agent against someone they don't like.

Now that being said I'm not saying not to call, that decision is yours. I will tell you this in the majority of situations like this the person who calls doesn't get a license plate, or gives the wrong one and doesn't stick around. Most of these types of calls aren't even assigned to a unit and are simply "BOLO'd" over the radio in case anyone is in the area and sees it.

If either of you did call and when I got there all parties were still present I would do a complete investigation and speak with all parties involved. The first thing that would speak volumes to me would be that both parties, which inevitably claim to be the victim, stayed in proximity to each other after the potential dangerous incident. In your situation each of you would have several witnesses that would likely be backing up both of your stories. At that point it becomes a case of you both go to jail or nobody goes to jail if I can't find any evidence other than witness statements. You can imagine what 99% of the people in that situation choose.

As for the other party calling and you going to jail I have only encountered that situation ONE time in my career. I was very unhappy with the whole thing as the "victim" is/was a total dirtbag that I have dealt with numerous times and is a known criminal and the "suspect" was his elderly neighbor that had gotten fed up with said dirtbag making all kinds of noise and always fighting with his wife. The dirtbag said the neighbor pulled a gun on him from across the fence after telling him to shut up and stop making noise. The dirtbag's wife confirmed his story, and he was able to describe the neighbor's gun that he still had on his person when I arrived there. Try as I could I wasn't able to talk the dirtbag out of pressing charges against the old man and even the Judge I called was dismayed that he had to issue a warrant.
The happy ending to the story was that the dirtbag moved off to somewhere unknown and when it came time for the charges to be heard myself and the other Deputy on the scene had the prosecutor drop the charges.

Bottom line is this, if you are threatened and you need to draw your gun that is what it's there for. Use your head and be smart and you will make it out alright.

 

[mmitch]

I believe you are obligated to de-escalate/retreat, given you have the means to do so. In a vehicle with a means to retreat, as described, I also believe you would be prosecuted and very possibly convicted, had you killed that irritable fellow.

Mike

 

[blueridgerunner]

As a former LEO myself I agree with the other former/current officers that say you did the right thing. I certainly would've, and, had the attack continued, put the assailant down. Realistically, given all the possible outcomes I doubt any action would've been taken against you in any case.

 

[Gozer]

I don't see anything to criticize about what he did, and only one thing I would do now if I were him.

Subject to any nuances of Tx law that I don't know about, I don't see what he did as brandishing. He didn't draw to show or intimidate. He drew it to get it ready to use. At that point the other party chose to disengage, and the situation was over. If I DID have to discuss it with LE, I would have been careful about phrase selection ("I pulled my .380 and showed it barrel out at him" is not the best selection of phrasing as it sounds 'brandish-y' even though we know what you mean).

In that specific situation, if I could not confidently punch the car clear without hitting other cars and/or people, I would not have done so. In talking with LE, of course, you emphasize the 'hitting people' concern. Practically, if he was just having a bad day and you freaked out and damaged his car then you have now escalated things and are clearly in the wrong, plus you now probably no longer have the option of just driving away and forgetting about it (now you have been in a fender bender with someone who was ALREADY threatening you with a lethal weapon - you don't have to stay under threat, but you need to get LE and go back to talk with him about it).

If he hadn't disengaged, would it have been a justified shooting? From what was posted here, probably so. Fortunately we don't need to find out.

Getting LE involved depends a lot on the local situation. Here in my home county and most counties around here, I would probably let LE know, both to cover my own posterior and to clear the larger situation (either they were setting up a strongarm robbery OR someone's having a really bad day and is on the edge of losing it - either way they need to be off that street). Other places, maybe or maybe not, depending on how I thought it might play out. You instinct said not to, and that works for me. You had witnesses with you. I would see about getting their statements properly on record somewhere (your lawyer can tell you how - doesn't require involving LE at this point, just has to meet certain requirements so if needed it can be deemed admissible) just in case something comes up later, but that's all at this point.

 

[rbernie]

Over here in San Antonio they say we can't go within 50, and for the most part, I don't think many mind that rule.

Parts of Ft. Bliss, and most of the neighborhoods around it, are less than ten miles from the fence.

SimplyChad - I think ya done fine. How were you carrying your Bersa so that you had it available?

 

[xcgates]

rBernie, yes, I see that every time I look on Google Maps, and shudder. Not many places in the U.S.A. I would truly feel uncomfortable in, but I think that would one place.

 

[Myles]

I'd say that you performed under stress very well. You defused the situation, made it plain that you were ready to defend your self and family, and removed yourselves from the threat. It could have been a whole lot messier.

I once was forced to draw on an enterprising young man in Memphis, who thought that opening his pocketknife would make me pull my wallet. Instead I pulled something else out of my pocket. He froze, very slowly closed the knife, and walked away. I felt that was a victory for everyone involved.

 

[SimplyChad]

When I got in the car I took my whole rig. Pistol hoster and spare mag set and stuffed it between the seat and center console. I haven't been wearing long so I had a rub rash. Glad I did if not I'm not sure how fast I can pull sitting in the car. Im gonna test that one in the backyard later

 

[AXI]

This is an EXAMPLE of what CCW should be used to do. By showing the weapon, guess what? No one died.

This guy, having seen this weapon, may not rob a car with a child in it.

 

[CornCod]

The Mexican border area is certainly a place of violence and instability. I think the poster did the prudent thing. If I lived in El Paso I would strap on the .45 just to take the garbage out to the front curb. I hope, eventually, law enforcement gets a handle on things down there.

 

[mdThanatos]

First of all, justified draw is my opinion. Second of all being a fellow resident of El Paso but non military my point of view of the city and its residents are different than Chad's and Rocket's.

The part about the spanish, someone suggested maybe the guy was asking for help, I doubt it. It was probably an aggressive "Spanglish" as we refer to it here. There is a negative relationship generally between the troops and the regular residents. Even though Fort Bliss provides nearly a billion dollars of business for the city, the city and its inhabitants, in general, don't appreciate it. Hell the mayor and one of the reps are trying to get Fort Bliss open to taxation now, that says a lot to me.

I'd say don't sweat it and if the police do get involved it will be hit or miss, some are good others not, hopefully you don't have to find out.

 

[7thCavScout]

You stayed one step ahead on the use of force continuum. I was stationed at Ft. Bliss for awhile. It made me actually miss Iraq. Glad you're safe.

 

[CoastieShep]

Sounds to me like you did the right thing.
I probably would've done the same thing in that situation.

 

[Hardtarget]

I don't know, but, some jerk yelling and waving a tire iron as he advances...well he is brandishing a weapon and showing serious intent...looking down that gun barrel might have smoothed him over just a bit...and changed his attitude.

Mark

 

[egg250]

Seems there are some who want to debate the term "brandish". While Mr. Webster is the authority on the definition of words in the English language the most important thing in the eyes of the law is the "legal" definition.

I'm not a lawyer, but when concerned about any law, regulation or statute in your state I recommend reading the state code and ensure you read the section where it gives the legal definition.

For example, in Virginia it is legal to openly carry a firearm. In Virginia Beach, VA it is illegal to openly carry a firearm. If you read the Virginia Beach ordinance, it defines a firearm as a firearm that is semiautomatic and has a magazine capacity of 30 rounds or more. My memory may be fading but I think my point is clear.

Chad, you did right and in a similar situation I'd do the same thing. I just hope that it would turn out the same way, situation resolved and a clear conscience.

 

[animator]

Anyone criticizing the original poster's actions disappoints me. Anyone who disagrees with the actions needs to go read the Texas Penal Code regarding the use of deadly force for personal and property defense, which clearly states the original poster was 100% within the law to act how he did.


It's easy to armchair-quarterback on the internet, but since no one else was there to see what happened, all we should comment on is if he was within the law. In Texas, it appears that he was.

 

[Kylima]

I can fully cope with SimplyChad. When I was roaming the US back in the early '70's I got involved in a situation like his. I had just bought a 1911 ACP and that saved the day.
According to me, he did the right thing. Otherwise the 2nd amendment is useless.Am I wrong?

 

[TexasRifleman]

I believe you are obligated to de-escalate/retreat, given you have the means to do so.

Maybe your own personal morals dictate that, or the laws where you live, but the OP is in Texas and no such requirement exists here.

It might be tactically smart to do sometimes, but there is no obligation to do that.

 

[AStone]

This is an interesting thread.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

When I got in the car I took my whole rig. Pistol hoster and spare mag set and stuffed it between the seat and center console. I haven't been wearing long so I had a rub rash. Glad I did if not I'm not sure how fast I can pull sitting in the car. Im gonna test that one in the backyard later

Chad, I have found that a "Cross Draw" type holster is about the best thing in the world for carry while driving. Seat belt buckle is a non issue with them. Same with a Shoulder Holster.

As far as your actions in your posted situation, I find absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with what you did. You showed great restraint in not firing and allowing the assaulter to back off and de-escalate the situation entirely. I am also of the same mind as most of the LEO's that have posted in that there is no way in hell I would have called that in. "No good deed goes unpunished" <<<<

 

[BudW]

Back Up go another way a option?

 

[Bonesinium]

I have yet to see a thread involving someone drawing and/or using a firearm for defensive purposes that hasn't had people say it was the wrong thing to do.

Here are the facts.

Someone approached him with a weapon in a threatening manner.
He pulled a gun out to combat the threat.
The threat retreated.

Whether you would have done something differently is moot. Whether it wasn't the best option is moot. Because the result was exactly what one would hope for. Exactly. No injuries. No attacks. No shots fired. Just some scumbag walking away.

And about not calling 911 because what if this guy calls the cops on him? Well, unless this guy got his license plate number, even if he did call, the cops are NOT coming after him, because they don't know who he is.

And this guy isn't calling the cops in the first place unless the only reason he was yelling at him with a tire iron was because the OP's car was blocking the car he was trying to change a tire on with the tire iron, and was yelling at him to move his car, and wasn't actually a threat to begin with. But I have a feeling this wasn't the case...

 

[LiENUS]

I think he was right to pull his gun but Bonesinium, probably not in this case but offenders will set up something so if things don't go the way they want they can call the cops on their intended mark and turn their self defense attempt against them.

I use to work in a prison, I had a guy planning to attack me with a spray bottle full of rubbing alcohol and a lighter, I took his weapon away from him and wrote him up on it. I did this in full view of two captains, three lieutenants and two majors and turned over the bottle to one of the captains. As soon as everyone left he ran to the warden crying saying that there wasn't rubbing alcohol in the bottle that it was just water. He had even planted another bottle where I confiscated the original in an attempt to claim I hadn't taken the bottle from him that I was just writing him up on it to screw with him. offenders will try anything they think they can get away with. There is an advantage to documenting what you did even if you had witnesses.

I think Doc1911's suggestion on Page 2 is the best suggestion for limiting what you say to the police is the best situation possible. Don't give the offender any leeway to make it seem like you were in the wrong. What you did might be brandishing in the technical sense but the reality is no judge or jury will allow you to be convicted on it if you can prove the facts are as you laid them out here.

 

[dusty14u]

I think you did well in this situation.

One level of concern that hasn't been mentioned in 3 pages is if the guy knows where you live? You stated you live on the road where this happened less than 4 blocks away. Does this person live in that house? Have they had occassion to see you driving through the neighborhood? If this is the case and revenge or retaliation might be a factor I would have alerted the police the first time so that that any reports to the police afterwards would have been documented.

Just something I wanted to bring up that I thought had not been covered.

 

[wishin]

You did good. Police need not be involved. I don't know Texas laws, but if you were threatened with bodily harm (iron) and feared for your life, brandishing should not be an issue.