*FIRST* World War Rifles?

[Cosmoline]

There are hundreds of threads about WWII rifles, but far fewer about the rifles of the Great War. With the 100th anniversary coming up and the last vets of the period leaving us it seems an appropriate time to look back. In this case at the long guns of the period.

I'm gearing up to start shooting an 1886/93 Lebel, but finding it tougher to track one down than I expected. I've also had a few m91 Mosins over the years, along with some of the Swiss 1911's. I've seen some Committee Mauser 88's but thinking about it, I've never even seen an 1898 Mauser Gewehr with the old style sights in the flesh for sale. There are a lot of Springfield 03's and Eddystone Enfields around. SMLE's too. I've seen a few Austro-Hungarian long straight pulls, but far more of the carbine versions from WWII. Ditto with the Italian rifles--lots of carbine versions from WWII but few of the long and elegant WWI versions. To my mind, the ultimate prize would be a Greek Mannlicher-Schoenauer in original military configuration. Never even seen one in the flesh!

In general, they tend to be longer in the barrel and finer in the sights. More difficult to use I suppose at least with aging eyes. But also quite accurate. And somehow more graceful, with fewer concessions to practicalities. They were probably the last generation of rifles made to be genuine spears for part of their duties. After WWI the bayonets tended to get shorter and more of a backup weapon.

What are folks collecting along these lines and shooting?

 

[Vaarok]

I don't like 1903 Springfields, to the point of passionate detestation, and I've yet to find an unmolested 1917 I liked. I have a 1911 date BSA SMLE, but the Ishapore looks better in photos for show-n-tell. Still looking for a nice P1914, I have a tigery stock kicking around for one.

My verdict? The Gew 88 Commissiongewehr by a far margin. Very accurate, fast loading, nice fit and finish, points well, smooth bolt.

Second place ties the Gew 98, which is elegant and has the best battle sight of any rifle I've ever used, and the Steyr 1895 long rifle, which has the worst battle sight but the best ergonomics for a left-handed shooter.

Honorable mention to the Ross 1910B, but the magazine on mine is screwed up, so I can't rightly avow it as a functional example- but it is VERY accurate. Fragile sights, though.

 

[stan rose]

Those are some very nice rifles. I like the wide plank flooring as well.

 

[Nugilum]

Not to deviate from the OP, but...
Vaarok:

I don't like 1903 Springfields, to the point of passionate detestation

OK, why? My M1903 is by far my favorite WWI rifle. My M1917 and my M1891 are my next favorite ones. Don't have a Gew98 yet...

 

[Robert]

The rifle is not a WW1. It is a 1941 Lithgow (Australian) No1 MkIII* so it is WW1 esk. The bayonet is a 11-17 Australian marked Model 1907 bayonet with the correct tear drop style knob on the scabbard.

I also have a non WW1 WW1 style rifle in my 12-41 dated Remington built 1903. I would love to have a P14 and a Gew98. I would give someone else's right leg to have a non charger conversion No1 MkI Long Lee Enfield. I love old war rifles.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I have a Gew 98(K)
one that was converted to the Karabiner configeration, unfortunatly it met bubba

 

[Murphy4570]

I've been collecting ammunition more than rifles as of late. Gotta fix that.

 

[Robert]

As an aside I am reading a rather interesting book, Tommy about the British soldiers on the Western Front from 1914 to 1918.

 

[Vaarok]

The US M1903 is a fragile target rifle with ridiculous to the point of nearly useless sights, that's essentially and in practice a dis-improved clone of a 1893 Mauser, firing a hotter round out of a shorter barrel than contemporaries for no discernible advantage.

And that doesn't even bring in things like bad heat treat, which really doesn't matter all that much, or expense of production, which mattered a hell of a lot.

 

[Nugilum]

Yea, the sights on the M1917 are much better than the M1903.
Valid point on sights. I need to look at an M1903A3.

 

[cluttonfred]

Considering that the M1917 Enfiled is what the vast majority of the AEF doughboys actually carried in WWI, with many soldiering with GIs and Marines in WWII, for me it wins out on history alone. That it is accurate, tough as nails, has great sights and matches up with a huge bayonet are all pluses as well. See http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=368166 for pics of mine.

 

[vaupet]

My favorite milsurp is my 1909 Carl gustav swedisch mauser m96.
it shoots my favorite 6.5x55 cartridge to and is incredibly accurate.

They are relatively easy to find but rather expensive in Europe.

 

[Jay the Plinker]

The last surviving WW1 Vet died in 2007 or around then!

 

[Robert]

The last surviving WW1 Vet died in 2007 or around then!

Not even close. At all.

The last surviving US WW1 vet, Frank Buckles died in 2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Buckles

The last surviving combat vet died 05-05-2011.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Choules

 

[kragluver]

I personally enjoy studying about and collecting WW1 era and prior rifles. (Hence my username).

A great discussion forum regarding WW1 equipment and weaponry can be found on gunboards.com.

 

[Cosmoline]

Great shooters as always Vaarok.

The Commission rifles have always interested me, and will probably be the next ones to look into after the Lebel. The examples I've held have been somewhat barrel-heavy though.

One I've never seen is an unaltered Turkish Mauser in the original chambering of 7.65x53.

 

[AlexanderA]

The US M1903 is a fragile target rifle with ridiculous to the point of nearly useless sights, that's essentially and in practice a dis-improved clone of a 1893 Mauser, firing a hotter round out of a shorter barrel than contemporaries for no discernible advantage.

Well, the M1903 is what it is, and it's hard to imagine a U.S. Military collection without one. The sight problem was mostly corrected in the 03A3.

Regarding the OP and the question about the availability of some of these rifles, I would start by making some contacts in the WWI reenactor community (Great War Association, etc.).

 

[Trebor]

I'm still looking for a U.S. made Mosin like those carried by mainly Michigan "Polar Bears" in Russia in 1918-1919.

Actually, I'm still keeping an eye out for any nice WWI rifles for my collection. They are a bit harder to find then WWII rifles, especially in nice shape.

 

[PreMod70]

The 03 has a sight problem????......explain to me how it held the 1000 yard record from the 30's until 1970 or so and it took a scoped 7 Mag. to beat it's record.

 

[Robert]

It is not that the sights are not usable, it is that there are something like 5 or 6 separate sights on the ladder. The 03 was a target rifle sold to the Army as a combat rifle. And it is pretty dang good at both. But to the untrained or poorly educated soldier of the era the sights on the 1903 were needlessly complicated.

 

[Kliegl]

I was reading about that Mannlicher (sp?) the other day, at least I think that's the one, with the clip that falls out of the magazine once you chamber the 5th round, then, upon firing, yank back the bolt and insert a new clip from the top. I wonder if Garand looked at that when designing the M1.

 

[PreMod70]

In the hands of the Marines they routed the Germans with the Springfield from as far as 1200 yards, a distance that they trained at before seeing combat. The Springfield sight when folded down is no different that the other open sighted rifles but when the sights were raised the Springfield controlled the battle with more accurate fire; the Germans were dying before they could see their enemy, something they had never experienced from the other Allied forces due to their inferior rifles.

 

[Robert]

Again. Never said it was not a damn good rifle. But the sight is needlessly complicated.

In the hands of the Marines they routed the Germans with the Springfield from as far as 1200 yards,

That is volley fire achieved with the ladder up using the volley sight, not aimed fire.

 

[PreMod70]

What is complicated with a 03 sight, the jarheads could figure it out so it can't be that much of a problem. As for volley fire, call it what you want but the Germans were dying and the Marines went unharmed. The Marines qualified with their Springfields at 1200 yards and they all were taught to aim with their sights.

 

[crazysccrmd]

This thread is inspiring me to spend too much money and too many nights sleeping on the couch after making her angry. I showed her the pictures and she commented on how she liked the older style wooden floors like that...