Fix 'em or break 'em down?

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45Bink

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Hi everyone!
New guy in the neighborhood, and to reloading, but not to shooting. My father in law was kind enough to give me most all of what I need to start loading, and I am extremely grateful! He also loaded a box of 45 Colt for me knowing I was looking for some. He has loaded more than I've ever shot, but I'm concerned his skills may be eroding. The box he loaded for me is all 0.100 over max OAL.

Should I pull those bullets and start over, or can I just seat them deeper? I know he used 5.6gr of Red Dot, and they are 230gr LRN bullets.

Thanks in advance for the help! Looking forward to being around for awhile!
 
.100 over max OAL in a revolver isnt necessarily an issue. However, if they are just spaced out too far, and not long-for-caliber bullets, there may be an issue.

Shake them and see if you can feel/hear a lot of free space in the powder charge. It may be wise to break down at least one to have a better looksee.
 
Does the rolled crimp meet with the crimp groove? And will they fit your gun?

I just started casting a Keith style SWC for 357 magnum. The OAL of the cartridge is 1.640" when the crimp is nicely into the crimp groove. The cartridges fit the magazine and load in the rifle, which is a Ruger 77/357. SAAMI says my max OAL should be 1.590". So these are .050" over the max.
Your FILs length may be what fit his gun.

BTW, Welcome to THR! :)
 
Your points are well made.

These cartridges don't fit my gun. Turns out length isn't too critical unless it's so long that the bullet sticks out the front of the cylinder of your Ruger New Vaquero so it won't rotate into firing position due to interference with the frame. But that's another story.

They are taper crimped (lighter loads) and the bullets themselves don't seem to have any cannelure, but when I get a few out, I'll know for sure.

Anyway, I think I'll break down a representative sample, and see what I've got.

Thanks!
 
A local shop here used to have a 44 mag sixgun on display with a blown cylinder. Faulty handload from another source. I decided that if I was going to blow up one of my guns, I would do it with my loads, not someone else's. I don't load for anybody else, and I don't want to test their stuff to destruction. Especially handgun. Too easy to double charge.
 
Most reloading accidents are due to squibs (too little or no powder). The bullet does not exit the barrel and the next shot (with a proper powder charge) wedges in behind the bullet lodged in the barrel causing the gun to blow up because there is no where for the pressure behind the bullet to go. I had a buddy that put a bulge in a 10mm Glock barrel this way and continued to shoot the bulged barrel... I declined to ever shoot any of his loads or an of his guns... ever!

If you doubt the load then pull them. My C96 Mauser feeds much better with longer than the book OAL so I load ammo for it a little long. But if your gut says to pull them than I would pull at least a dozen or so and weigh the powder charges. If any have a lite or missed powder charge pull the whole lot.

What are you shooting the 45LC in? An old gun would make me very uneasy and I would want to know the exact charge that was used. A modern firearm should not have any issues with a .1 over OAL bullet seating. You know your father, if you don't trust his ability to load safely pull them and don't ever say anything about it.
 
45Bink said:
Hi everyone!
New guy in the neighborhood, and to reloading, but not to shooting. My father in law was kind enough to give me most all of what I need to start loading, and I am extremely grateful! He also loaded a box of 45 Colt for me knowing I was looking for some. He has loaded more than I've ever shot, but I'm concerned his skills may be eroding. The box he loaded for me is all 0.100 over max OAL.

Should I pull those bullets and start over, or can I just seat them deeper? I know he used 5.6gr of Red Dot, and they are 230gr LRN bullets.

Thanks in advance for the help! Looking forward to being around for awhile!
Click to expand...


What max OAL??. What do they actually measure out to?? SAAMI spec or a manual powder company spec.?
Where did he obtain the data?
 
I can't comment on the load that you FIL used other than a longer COL doesn't translate into unsafe as long as it fits the cylinder of your revolver. Handgun cartridges can build excess pressure if the COL is shorter than what was tested in the book. I'd find some data on Reddot and if the powder charge is not over max then I'd think they are safe.

If the 0.1" over "max" OAL is your only evidence of your FIL's eroding skills, you might be over reacting.
 
Sadly, there's other evidence of erosion in areas outside of reloading. Beside the point.

I would've been comfortable with the loads except they extend far enough put the front of the cylinder of the revolver that the run into the back of the barrel where they rotate up into firing position.

49 of 50 measure very near 1.700, 1 is 1.658. SAAMI says 1.600, the factory loads I have are in the 1.590 neighborhood. That 1 different one is what inspired me to check.

After work today I'm going to break a few down and check the charge. If it's OK (his notes say 5.6gr red dot which is inline with the data I've read), would it make sense to simply press the bullets in another .050 or so so they'll fit in the gun?

By the way, love the name Laphroaig!
 
45Bink said:
Sadly, there's other evidence of erosion in areas outside of reloading. Beside the point.
Click to expand...

In that case I might be concerned too. I didn't catch that they were too long for your cylinder so there is a problem. Reseating a crimped round will most probably scrape lead off of the bullet.
 
45Bink said:
He has loaded more than I've ever shot, but I'm concerned his skills may be eroding. The box he loaded for me is all 0.100 over max OAL.
Click to expand...

Welcome Aboard !

Your knowledge is somewhat lacking in 3 areas, and we can fix that....
• Revolver cartridges aren't "over Max OAL" until the bullets stick out the front of the revolver's cylinder and refuse to allow the cylinder to spin freely.
• The OAL listed in your reloading reference is simply what the test rounds measured when they were collecting data to write the manual. They are NOT a suggestion or any kind of recommendation for you. They are simply part of the Report on cartridge behavior, that the reloading reference is based upon.
• A longer OAL makes the cartridge safer because it lowers the chamber pressure. So in and of itself, a long OAL is not a danger sign. (Now, on the other hand if you believe it is indicative of sloppy powder measurement, then that would indeed be a certifiable cause for alarm.)

Typically, what you want to see is the mouth of the cartridge case, rolled over into the "crimp groove" provided in the bullet. It's the cannelure provided for the roll crimp that determines the OAL of a revolver cartridge, NOT the physical length measurement.

KnUBoU8l.jpg
An exceptionally fine example of revolver reloading, stolen from Walkalong​

Hope this helps.
 
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45Bink said:
Sadly, there's other evidence of erosion in areas outside of reloading. Beside the point.

I would've been comfortable with the loads except they extend far enough put the front of the cylinder of the revolver that the run into the back of the barrel where they rotate up into firing position.

49 of 50 measure very near 1.700, 1 is 1.658. SAAMI says 1.600, the factory loads I have are in the 1.590 neighborhood. That 1 different one is what inspired me to check.

After work today I'm going to break a few down and check the charge. If it's OK (his notes say 5.6gr red dot which is inline with the data I've read), would it make sense to simply press the bullets in another .050 or so so they'll fit in the gun?

By the way, love the name Laphroaig!
Click to expand...


Well then, if they extend past the cylinder and locks up then They must be broken down.

Sorry to hear about your Father, my Dad went through it, very sad to see a persons mind go,
 
What rfwobbly said ^^^^^^.

I've loaded .45 Colt for 40 years and can't remember ever measuring OAL. Use the crimp groove if the bullet has one, and seat a bullet diameter or a tad less if it does not. As long as the cartridge fits in your revolver chamber and does not extend so far as to prevent cylinder turning, you are good to go assuming you have the powder charge correct as per the load books.
 
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rfwobbly said:
Your knowledge is somewhat lacking in 3 areas, and we can fix that....
• Revolver cartridges aren't "over Max OAL" until the bullets stick out the front of the revolver's cylinder and refuse to allow the cylinder to spin freely.
• The OAL listed in your reloading reference is simply what the test rounds measured when they were collecting data to write the manual. They are NOT a suggestion or any kind of recommendation for you. They are simply part of the Report on cartridge behavior, that the reloading reference is based upon.
• A longer OAL makes the cartridge safer because it lowers the chamber pressure. So in and of itself, a long OAL is not a danger sign. (Now, on the other hand if you believe it is indicative of sloppy powder measurement, then that would indeed be a certifiable cause for alarm.)
Click to expand...

How is his knowledge lacking...?
He already stated the rounds would protrude out the front of the cylinder,
and the other two points you make are, although very true, now irrelevant because of the first point he already stated.....?

So, tell me, what did you fix...?
 
Weigh them. If you pull a random sample. Check for proper powder weight. Then weigh them the bullets should weigh close to the same thing. This should eliminate a risk for double powder charging without pulling the lot. If they all weigh close to the same thing then seat them. If he was using a dial caliper he may have misread it. (Disclaimer I have yet to get into reloading I’m just using common sense and quality control best practices.
 
Considerations (for me). A 230 LRN w/o a crimp groove is generally a 45 ACP bullet. I've used a similar in my SAA clone OK but with upper loads I did get some bullets walking. And .100" over OAL max.? That alone is questionable. First, what source of info, reloading manual? I like reloading and the only ammo I have ever fired, besides factory is my handloads. In all my reloading time (a few decades) I have seen how easy it it to make a Grand Faux Pas and produce potentally dangerous ammo. Luckily, my stubborn anal methods have kept me safe with only one squib and no kabooms. I'd pull them, toss powder and after checking bullets, reload the cases...
 
rfwobbly said:
I don't believe he said that. I didn't see that the first time, and in a review I still don't see it.
Click to expand...

45Bink said:
These cartridges don't fit my gun. Turns out length isn't too critical unless it's so long that the bullet sticks out the front of the cylinder of your Ruger New Vaquero so it won't rotate into firing position due to interference with the frame.
Click to expand...
45Bink said:
I would've been comfortable with the loads except they extend far enough put the front of the cylinder of the revolver that the run into the back of the barrel where they rotate up into firing position.
Click to expand...


Post#5 and Post #10........His words......I'm not making it up.....
 
Ok!

Whether I said it or not, my knowledge is absolutely lacking, and in more than 3 places! That's why I'm here, and I appreciate ALL the input.

I've broken a half dozen cartridges down and have seen nothing that scares me. Charges are all 5.6 gr as advertised.

Cases don't seem over full, in fact quite low.

Bullets are not what I thought though.
20220103_162526.jpg

I feel comfortable shooting these if I can get them short enough to fit the gun. Should I just press them in, or keep pulling.

20220103_162615.jpg
 
They are deffenetly to long. That's for sure. Check the headstamps. If all the same go to step #2 use a known correct completed cartridge and weigh it. compare the weight with all the others. That should tell you if the powder charge is correct in all of them if no cannalure i crimp to published info, if canalure crimp to that. I use a very light crimp with my loads ( Greendot) Never a problem
 
45Bink said:
I feel comfortable shooting these if I can get them short enough to fit the gun. Should I just press them in, or keep pulling.
Click to expand...

It looks like you got room on the bullet shank to go shorter.
Try seating one deeper to your liking, see if any lead or coating shaves off, and then maybe even pull that bullet and have a look.
You said they were lightly taper crimped, so if your satisfied with the powder charge, I would bet you could just seat 'em a little deeper.....

Might also wanna weigh that bullet just to make sure....since you already have it pulled...
 
45Bink said:
Ok!

Whether I said it or not, my knowledge is absolutely lacking, and in more than 3 places! That's why I'm here, and I appreciate ALL the input.

I've broken a half dozen cartridges down and have seen nothing that scares me. Charges are all 5.6 gr as advertised.

Cases don't seem over full, in fact quite low.

Bullets are not what I thought though.
View attachment 1049524

I feel comfortable shooting these if I can get them short enough to fit the gun. Should I just press them in, or keep pulling.

View attachment 1049525
Click to expand...
To me it kinda looks like a .45ACP LRN that’s been powder coated and your FIL just crimped in the (empty) lube groove. Probably worked fine in his gun, whatever it is. I don’t know if they’re all good loads but I have done the same thing with LRN 230’s for plinking. Come to think of it my loading book says 5.5gr of Red Dot is a good 650fps tin can bouncing load. I roll crimp over the end of the driving band, where ogive starts, basically. Mostly just for looks.
 
@45Bink, welcome to THR!
+1 on seating the bullet a bit deeper. If you pulled a few and are comfortable with the charges, it looks like it’s only a taper crimp so the bullets should seat a bit more.
You also said he loaded a box, if that’s only 50 or so, it’s not that much to pull them. You can get practice sizing, charging, and seating if you want since you have primed cases. Good luck.
 
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