"Flat" hitting the pattern board.

[sm]

Back in the day shotguns came with fixed chokes.
I and many others still prefer fixed chokes.

Fixed chokes really were not a problem for shotgunners, back then any more than they are today. Just like yesteryear, folks tried a gun for gun fit, considered task for gun and investigated and verified loads for that gun at yardages.

Basically the way it worked was 26" barrel was fixed Skeet or Improved Cylinder, 28" for fixed Modified, and 30" for fixed full.

One can get a Improved Cylinder like pattern from a fixed full choke.
We stacked loads back in the day after shooting a pattern board.

Again shotgunner understood "matter of bore not choke" and "pellet deformity", "chilled/soft shot" "hard/target shot and many other aspects of this Art & Science.

So a person with a 30" barrel, with a fixed full choke would load a "wide" pattern shell into the chamber for the first shot and one a bit "tighter" for the second shot, a bit further out.

Screw in chokes come to be and cordless drills got to be more fun to play with "spinning choke tubes" than actually investigating and verifying what a gun did with what load at what distance.

Truth is, the shotgunners that "get it" don't do the "Choke Tube Spin Boogie"...they have stacked loads and they have already checked that gun, with that choke tube installed with the loads they have.

Focus on the target - not the equipment - Will Fennell.

Passing forward is a lot of fun and rewarding.
So some kids and new folks had a ball running back and forth over bag of shot in the driveway.

Bag was low, these folks really into learning, the pattern board and all and so go out and "flatten" or "smush it " to get the chilled shot "flat".

Serious fun so a .410 with fixed full and a 20ga with various fixed barrels were chosen for this fun lesson.

These two guns have a reload recipe that is known and has been shot and the pattern papers saved showing what these guns do.

So for this lesson the same recipe with #8 shot, hard and soft - not messed with was shot, with the .410 single shot and with the 20 ga, with Sk, Mod, and full barrels.
Control if you will.

Now reload the smushed chilled with respective recipes.

Shoot for patterns and that fixed full for example really opened up with "flat shot".

It was a nice day for they had for doing this, and lots of fun, and very educational.

Reloading affords one some options...
Try this sometime and do so with a new shooter and pass it forward.

Steve

 

[Pete409]

I realize that you are writing more for the entertainment value than for the informational value contained therein, but nevertheless, I must take exception to your post above.

While changing the type (round vs deformed) of shot will make a small difference in the pattern size, it won't make nearly as much difference as changing the choke.

Yes, I've tried it......... many times with many different types of shot and types of loads (both handloads and factory loads) at different distances. The only load that will make a tight choke open up considerably at close range is a well constructed "spreader" load. The best spreader load I've found is Kent Velocity Spreader Load. It is 1 1/8 ounce of #8 shot at about 1250 fps.

Now that we've got that matter straightened out, you can go back to entertaining the troops with your writing.

 

[Robert Hairless]

SM isn't "entertaining the troops." He's sharing a lifetime of experience: his experience.

 

[Pete409]

SM isn't "entertaining the troops." He's sharing a lifetime of experience: his experience

.

That's fine. Then perhaps he wouldn't mind showing us the data that supports his claims.

 

[sm]

That's fine. Then perhaps he wouldn't mind showing us the data that supports his claims.

No disrespect, and I don't know your age or shotgun experience.

I was born in 1955, and folks were doing this before I was born. My Mentors & Elders did this, and my memory wants to say various hunting and fishing magazines shared this.

Bob Brister, Grant Isleng, and Fred Misseldine are three gentleman that not only said it, they also did this, and Brister for sure put it in his book and I want to say Misseldine did.

Many members on this board are older than I, they recall this being and did so themselves. Many members younger were also mentored with this.

We did not have screw in chokes per se' . Chokes and "constriction" is not a new thing, the Russians won the Gold Medal in the Olympics one year (forget what year) using a barrel custom made, with a fixed choke and so named the "Russian Choke".

They tweaked the "choke" to pattern the required load one had to use.

Shotshells and components changed over the years. Many fixed choked guns that patterned a particular load well, when the plastic hull and plastic wad come to be, changed the pattern of the same load offering, with the new components, say a 3 dr 1 1/8 oz target load most often used for trap.

Some...used a cylinder hone to take a smidge of "restriction" out (a point or two) to get the new offerings to pattern like the old offerings - or - backed down a bit on reloading recipe.
Instead of running the normal 1200 fps, backed down to 1175, 1165, 1145 ( which is what Super Lite and others are) and even some lower.
This changed hold points and leads too.

Art & Science...I just know from my experiences and observations. Mentors, Elders and private conversations with some known folks like having shot with Brister, Isleng, and Misseldine.

Others on this board, can share their experiences.

I am not sure why someone would question another liking fixed chokes, or suggesting folks go out and pattern a load with a shotgun.

Metallic Reloaders for pistol and handgun shoot to test loads all the time, and their guns are fixed lands and grooves.
They change loadings for tasks...

 

[Oldnamvet]

Bob Brister, Grant Isleng, and Fred Misseldine are three gentleman that not only said it, they also did this, and Brister for sure put it in his book and I want to say Misseldine did.

A quote from chapter 12 of Art and Science -- Choosing chokes and loads.

"With some loads, full-choke constriction (about 30 thousandths of an inch smaller than bore diameter) will throw modified or even improved-cylinder patterns and with other loads it will throw extra full patterns. The quality of the ammunition, particularly shot hardness, nowadays has almost as much to do with performance as degree of constriction. And contrary to popular belief, more constriction does not necessarily mean a tighter pattern. Too much constriction causes patterns to suffer."

Pages and pages of discussion and example patterns follow.

 

[evbutler462]

sm,

I am a child of the Great Depression, born prior to WWII. I know of what you speak. Not only are you entertaining but also very informative. I really enjoy your posts. Keep up the good work.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Pete409:

That's fine. Then perhaps he wouldn't mind showing us the data that supports his claims.

You want data proving my remark that: "SM isn't 'entertaining the troops.' He's sharing a lifetime of experience: his experience."

I suppose sm could upload his biography with sworn affidavits from witnesses to each event he relates.

Let me think about it for a while. Why don't you do the same. Let's compare notes at the next group get together.

 

[plumberroy]

All you have to do is pattern promotional loads(cheapest)against top target loads like AA or STS the cheap shells are soft lead shot were the target loads are hard shot There is a big difference if patterns , Amost as much switching to the next choke try shooting some cut shot (cubes cut from sheet lead) if you don't think It makes a difference where I get my data? by sending many many rounds down range for the last 36 years
Hey Steve !!! I got me another 28 single

 

[Pete409]

Several of you have referred to Brister's book Shotgunning, the Art and the Science to substantiate your claim of the superiority of hard shot versus soft shot. I've got his book and have read it several times.

What you are overlooking in Brister's book is the application and context of his work. When he wrote the book, hunters still used lead shot for waterfowl. What the hunters wanted was a good tight pattern at LONG range. They weren't looking for some spreader load to open up the choke. They were looking for ways to make their long range loads TIGHTER.

Brister proved that for long range lead loads, high quality, round shot was superior to soft shot (which deformed easily) for producing denser patterns at long range. I agree with that.

For those who suggest that I need to pattern some cheap, soft lead loads against good, hard lead target loads, I'm waaaaay ahead of you. Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt. As I stated in my post above, soft deformed shot will make a slight difference in the size of a close range pattern, but it won't make a significant difference.

As for the "data" I asked about, I'm looking for the data that SM used to draw his conclusions about using flattened shot to cause a load to open up quickly. For example, what was the pattern size of a full choke at 20 yards with hard shot, and what was the pattern size of the same full choke at 20 yards with soft shot that he had run over with his car or truck? If you are going to claim that it makes a significant different in pattern size in this application, then you should be able to give us the data that proves this.

 

[plumberroy]

As for the "data" I asked about, I'm looking for the data that SM used to draw his conclusions about using flattened shot to cause a load to open up quickly. For example, what was the pattern size of a full choke at 20 yards with hard shot, and what was the pattern size of the same full choke at 20 yards with soft shot that he had run over with his car or truck? If you are going to claim that it makes a significant different in pattern size in this application, then you should be able to give us the data that proves this.

I don't have the time or energy to copy All my notes but if you are asking for date on chokes and pattern at least use standard ranges shotgun chokes are tested at 40 yards shot at a 30 in circle and percent of shot counted to give you the "choke"
Here is the notes for one gun :
Gun N.E.F. 12
barrel 24"
marked choke full
Loads shot
winchester game and field 1 1/8 7 1/2's
15 shots average # pellets 267 267 divided by 394 (average 1 1/8th load pellt count) = 67.7%
load shot win. AA 1 1/8 7 1/2
15 shots Average # pellets 294 using above forula that =74.6%

74.6-67.7=6.9%difference to me that is quite a difference for just softer shot and shot cup
Testing like this is time consuming and most people won't take the time to do it they just read the ammo makers data and believe it I am just getting gaurds made to start chronographing shotguns but the data they give you on rifle speeds is "stretched" if you can get with in 100 fps of published data with a production rifle you ars doing good only exception to that is 17 hmr and 22 lr they are close to published data
Pete you posts show you seem to know "published data" well.(I went back and read several pages of your post) the ammo industy has the sharpest engineers and barrel makers in the busness working full time on building barrels that make their ammo look great on paper I have had a shotgun since I was 9 I am 46 now I shoot any chance I get . and have been doing that for 37 years
What you have to look at when considering ammo data is , the ammo industry is trying to sell you something, gun writers either work for the gun industy or want to! people like Steve are just trying to help you out No Charge with their experiance witch one do you think is stretching the truth?
Roy

 

[Pete409]

Roy,

I'm always willing to learn something, but I want to make sure that what I'm learning is factual, not just what someone thinks or has heard.

Here is the actual quote from SM.

Shoot for patterns and that fixed full for example really opened up with "flat shot".

I simply want to know HOW MUCH the flat shot opened up the pattern in his testing, or did he actually do any testing at all? BTW, it is meaningless to compare patterns from one gun and choke to those of another gun and choke, particularly if they are different gauges as I think is what SM was saying. Just because a barrel is marked "Full, Modified, or whatever" doesn't mean that is how it will pattern.

Also, standard patterning distances have nothing to do with my question. If I'm using a fixed full choke as SM referenced, I may have to shoot one shot at 50 yards and the next one at 20 yards in a sporting clays tournament. I want to know how much this flattened shot is going to open the pattern at 20 yards compared to non-flattened loads. My own patterning tells me that the difference in pattern size at close range with flattened shot is "not much". I just want to hear what SM got.

 

[sm]

I am pressed for time, as I heading out the door to pick up someone from the doctor's office and then am dealing with surgery next week and need to run by and deliver scripts and receive instructions.

I was born in '55 and started shooting handguns at age 3, rifles at age 4 and shotguns at age 5. I honestly don't remember everything in all these years.
I had notebooks at one time, but I have had more than one fire destroy firearms, ammo, equipment and them notebooks.

Don't ask me to give details, as there is no way I can. Do you realize how much it actually hurts to remember all my Mentors, all their notes, all my notes and everything is gone!
I want my Mentors back more than the notes, more than the Model 97's, 12, 42s, 1300s, SX1 , Rem 3200, , 1911s, and about 200 USGI Mags, BHPs , one gun my grandma had...so much more...

I have tears streaming just thinking about that stuff and that data.
My...28gauges, every damn one is gone, Custom Wood, and not even a single shot.

Some data, I turned in to those that asked me do so some T&E, I have no idea where that is.

I have fired 300,000 thru one shotgun I still have. I only have two shotguns left, and that one is off site, it means a lot to me.

My autographed copies of books by Misseldine, Brister and others, all gone.

I have had 25 shotguns and maybe 4 barrels in all 4 gauges, with 9 reloaders set up doing all this with someone taking notes.

I was doing this before I graduated HS in '73. I know, what I know from my experiences and observations.
I know two barrels off the assembly line, one right after another, can and will pattern different. The same recipe reloaded with a new batch of powder , or primer, or wad, or how many times a hull reloaded will chrono, and pattern different.

I know my Citori 3 bbl set with the 28 ga bbl, with fixed skeet choked barrels would break a rising teal at 40 yds.

I am the only survivor of some various groups, I have nobody to post alive to verify that witnessed it, the damn is destroyed and I miss the mentor more than the gun.
Still I did it, and I did it 36 times straight, to honor a B-Day person.

Good Grief, I have had 20 fixed full choke barrels and shooting these at all sorts of yardages...

I cannot produce data, the reality is, each gun is a entity to itself, too many variables.
I could share 18.5 gr of 452AA with a certain wad and hull would do for me ...and another would try that recipe and maybe have to back it down to 18.1, or 18.3 on the powder chg.

Stan Baker Bore Diameter Tool...Just for the hell of it, run the sucker down 10 guns, just alike on a gun rack and there would be a difference in the same guns.

Take a pair of pliers and test different brands of shot for hardness, and there is a difference and the next lot might differ too.

I did this because I wanted to and something to do. I also cannot reveal some things for my safety. I was doing some things back in the day, and between things, I did stuff like this.

PM Larry Ashcraft, hso, BullfrogKen , Jeff White or Massad Ayoob and all they will say is "yes, Steve did that" as they will not put me in harms way.

I burned all my sanctioned cards and quit shooting in public places, or if I did, I used another name.
One reason is The Great Equipment race, the other was somebody was a bit too close and being one some criminals might want to kidnap, I left in the trunk of a body guards car.

I and mine went rogue. Mentors hustled, so me and mine shot to raise money for those in need, like 'Nam Vets and families, or sick and dying kids in Ped's Hospitals.
Private folks paid me to shoot, and that money went to these folks.
Private ranges and private games, and not just skeet, also 5 stand , sporting clays, Live Pigeon and Columbaire.

I can tell you I missed a pigeon worth $2,000 bucks, the Columbaire beat me, that was his job, and while I hit the pigeon, it did not fall within the circle.
I did hit a pigeon worth $3000, and felled it fast.

I cannot hand anyone any data, the reality is, one has to test their gun, as each gun is different, and each component can differ, even a different primer brand has been known to differ the same recipe.

I don't have to defend myself either.
I pass forward because I want to. The original post was because some have found some good buys on fixed choked barrels or guns with fixed chokes.
I chose to post publicly.

I am dead serious when I share there are a lot of folks that do not post questions publicly, as they have been brow beaten on this Forum and others.
There are a lot of folks that no longer reply to posts, as they do not have to defend or show data either.

Known shooters, and trainers, do not post here anymore.
Best example was some Armchair telling Pat Rogers he did not know squat about a AR.

We have folks here, that are shooting in the big leagues and a few have simply ask why I keep sharing as I do. I tell them.
These folks assist me behind the monitor with those that won't ask in public.

Don't believe me, ask Bartholomew Roberts, Dave McCracken , Art Eatman , Matthew Vannitas, and hso if recently they contacted me as my PMs are off as a member or two really wanted some input from me.

Why me? Hellifino, still we got these folks fixed up, I am nobody, I did my thing, and I do my thing.
I have my experiences, my observations and my elephants, mine are not that big of a deal in comparison to others, still these are mine and I own them.

Some of my life is off paper, as I was a kid when some went down. It ain't there either.
If I say a 20 ga slug will get a vehicles with looters with evil intent, shooting guns, to take what tornado's have left, to stop doing what they are doing...two choices, either read or don't read.
Still I have slapped slugs from a 20 bore, and I have opened a pattern with fixed full choke, and I have felled rising teal with a fixed skeet choke in 28 ga, and felled ducks with .410, 28, and felled a turkey with a .22 revolver.

My grandma gave me that revolver and she died on March 11, and that damn gun was stolen.
Don't even question my grandma giving me that gun, me shooting it at age 3 and me felling a turkey with it before I was teenager.

I do not have have data for somethings, I do not not care what most folks think, I have lived long enough, paid my dues, seen the gates of hell and had my elephants.

If you will excuse me, there are ,more pressing matters I need to attend to than shotguns.
Cancer treatment is about done for someone...they need a ride home.
I have a sick kid I need to see...
I have my mom going in for surgery again...


Regards,

Steve

 

[Pete409]

Steve,

Thanks for responding, and good luck to you and yours. Don't worry about the data I asked about. It's not important.

I do as you suggested and pattern my own guns with the chokes and loads I use. I also rely on my own data.

Thanks again for responding.

 

[plumberroy]

If you will excuse me, there are ,more pressing matters I need to attend to than shotguns.
Cancer treatment is about done for someone...they need a ride home.
I have a sick kid I need to see...
I have my mom going in for surgery again...

Steve You and Yours Are in my prayers Keep up the good work


Pete I once read before they invented the shot tower people used to cut sheet lead up in cubes for shot since I had sheet lead and a paper cutter I made some (this is not good on a paper cutter btw) and shot it out of a muzzle loading shotgun w full choke this gun hammers a turkey at 40 yards with 1 1/4 oz of# 5 shot with the cut shot I could not reliablely kill a grey squirrel past 25 yards shot was cheap back then so I dropped my little experiment
Roy