Flattened My First Primers

[DMW1116]

I loaded up a test batch of 52 grain Barnes Match Burners with H335 to try and improve the groups I shot with TAC. The starting charge was 24.6 grains with a COAL of 2.250”.

This doesn’t seem too much for this powder and bullet combo but all three cases had flattened primers. The rest of the loads went to 27 grains in 0.4 grain increments. That would have been a pretty hot load but I stopped after the first round. The data came from the 50th edition Lyman manual for a 52 grain SMK.

Does a flattened primer always mean high pressure? I don’t want to pull all the test bullets but I don’t see a way around it now.

 

[troy fairweather]

Pictures of primers

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Federal primers pretty much always flatten so, no it’s not always over pressure.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Flat primers that are pushed out slightly can come from too low pressure. Generally this is combined with a dirty case neck.
Clean brass and a flat primer is usually a bad sign.
S&B primers are flat under normal load conditions.
If your flat primer brass doesn't hold a new primer well. Then it's a very hot load.

 

[DMW1116]

I'm going to go ahead and pull them I think. I don't have any reason to push it. Looking at 223 data from Barnes, their starting load is considerably lower than where I started, but also uses a COAL of 2.2" even. They are safely separated from the rest of my other loads for this caliber. I'll pull them and recycle the components. I'll go get some pictures now. There aren't any ejector marks and the ejection pattern was right at 3 o'clock.

 

[DMW1116]

Below are pictures of 3 cases from today. First is a case fired from another rifle with a completely different load, powder, and bullet. Second is a case from a TAC load using the same Match Burner bullet and fired from the same 16" barrel as the questionable rounds. Third is the load in question; H335 powder and a 52 grain Barnes Match Burner. These were loaded to the minimum charge in my Lyman loading manual of 24.6 grains for a 52 grain SMK (the only 52 grain match bullet listed). Brass for the H335 load was Lake City and primers are CCI 400. I removed the primer crimps with a countersink bit in the drill I use for trimming cases. I have not cycled a bullet through the action to test for set-back. The bullets were given a light crimp as instructed in the Lee Factory Crimp Die instructions, which is 1/2 turn deeper than touching the shell holder.




This is a case shot from a different rifle loaded with CFE 223 and a 77 grain SMK.

Above is one of the TAC test loads cases.

This is one of the questionable cases from today. It was loaded with a 52 grain Barnes Match Burner and 24.6 grains of H335.

 

[Slamfire]

I loaded up a test batch of 52 grain Barnes Match Burners with H335 to try and improve the groups I shot with TAC. The starting charge was 24.6 grains with a COAL of 2.250”.

This doesn’t seem too much for this powder and bullet combo but all three cases had flattened primers. The rest of the loads went to 27 grains in 0.4 grain increments. That would have been a pretty hot load but I stopped after the first round. The data came from the 50th edition Lyman manual for a 52 grain SMK.

Does a flattened primer always mean high pressure? I don’t want to pull all the test bullets but I don’t see a way around it now.

Flattened primers are not necessarily an indication of high pressure. Let me recount my experience, some of it is considered heretical by the shooting community.

When I started shooting NRA Across the Course Highpower, the M1a ruled the firing line. Most competitors loaded their brass five times and tossed it, to avoid case head separations. No wanted a malfunction at a match because malfunctions ruin your score.



However one shooter, a Distinguished High Master, who incidentally is a great gunsmith, he lubed his 308 Win cases and ran them all season. HM sized his cases with RCBS water soluble lube and then trimmed, primed, charged, and seated the bullet without removing the case lube. His cartridges felt slightly greasy. However that tiny amount of retained case lube was enough to prevent sidewall stretch. HM never had case head separations.

I copied his technic, but I did not like the greasy feel, so I experimented with many lubricants. The best for matches, was rubbing Johnson Paste Wax on the loaded cartridges. The cases were nice and clean, I tumbled them before lubing and then sized and trimmed them. After trimming I washed off the lube in hot soapy water, and then dried the rinsed cases in a toaster oven at low. Only after sizing, priming, dumping the charge and seating the bullet, did I apply Johnson Paste Wax. Why I like Paste wax was because it was dry and not sticky. Dirt did not adhere, I could drop the case on the ground, wipe it, and it was good to go. My fingers were not greasy from case lube at the range. Rubbing paste wax on did take longer than just leaving the case lube on, but that is something I did from match ammunition. Most of the time. Sometimes I did not have enough time between matches and ran cases with the case lube still on.

One of the first things I noticed was, with dry cases in dry chambers, the primers were always flat. However, once I lubed the cases, the primers were rounded. Same everything else. Humm. Something going on.

A dry case adheres to the chamber, and then the sidewalls have to stretch to when the case head moves to the bolt face. Paste wax melts and turns into a lubricant under the temperatures and pressures of combustion. So the cases were sliding to the breech face. That was what prevented sidewall stretch.

R stands for number of times reloaded. All these cases experienced case neck splits or a body split. These failed cases where then sectioned to see if there was a stretch mark.









So why were my lubricated cases not showing flattened primers? This is the clue:

Sako fired brass



Sometimes shooters encounter fired cases with the primer sticking out. This phenomena happens under a couple of conditions. The first condition is good adhesion between the case and chamber. The case is locked to the walls of the chamber during combustion. And, the internal pressures in the case are insufficient to stretch the case sidewalls. But the primer backs out to the bolt face. The end result are these high primers.

I figured out that the primer backs out of the pocket during ignition. If there is clearance between the case head and bolt face, the primer will back out to the bolt face and push the case forward. And then, if pressures are high enough, and case adherence great enough, the sidewalls stretch, and the primer gets stuffed back into the primer pocket. However, the primer has slightly expanded with pressure, so it does not go in rounded. It will look flat.

Since then, I regularly develop loads with lubricated cases. One reason, I want to see the transition from rounded primers to flat primers. I am usually a grain to a couple of grains above a “max load” when I see flat primers. But this is not 100%. Also, I fireform new cases lubricated, so I don’t experience any sidewall stretch.

Such as this. These are 300 H&H cases, at the time about $2.00 each. Probably more now. The base to shoulder distance is not controlled in the chambers of belted magnum rifles, and I did not want to experience case head separations due to excessive clearance between the shoulder of the case, and the shoulder of the chamber. So I lubed the cases on first firing.





Shot well too.



When I lube a case, after firing I have a perfectly fire formed, stress free case. When I resize, I just bump the shoulder back 0.003”.

Many in the shooting community consider the practice of firing lubricated cases heretical. It is a very long story why they believe this, but they were taught this. It is one of the longest and most successful coverups in shooting history, over a century old. And I have written extensively about this, and am not interested in repeating it now.But it starts with the Army, low number Springfields and cupronickel bullets.

With regular loads and lubricated cases, my primers come out rounded. Unless I have some horribly hot load with lubricated cases. Which has happened during load development, and even afterwards when I thought I was under a maximum load. I do not trust primer appearances to show anything unless the cases are fired lubricated. And then primer roundness or flatness is still an unreliable indication of pressure.

The only pressure indications I trust are blown, leaking, or pierced primers. Some of these primers fell out when the case head was turned down, or tapped on a table.



Primer cupping may or may not be a pressure indication, because some manufacturer’s have made bolt faces with extra large primer holes. And those always cup the firing pin.

If your primers can be pushed into the pocket with your thumb, after a couple of firings, the load is way the heck too hot. That is an absolutely reliable indication of excessive pressures.

A sticking bolt is a positive indication of over pressures. I have seen the bolt handles broken off Rem M700 when reloaders use blocks of wood, or their boots, to open the bolt.

This would a positive indication of high pressures










And regardless of the data in a reloading manual, if you ever experience real indications of over pressure conditions cut your loads. I have read a lot of denial on this and have made posters unhappy when I state this and I have received angry replies. Confirmation bias can be an ugly thing. Manuals are just a guide. Powders vary by lot, chambers vary by gun, and it is very possible to get over pressure conditions under the maximum loads shown in manuals. Overpressure means too much powder in the case, so cut the loads.

 

[DMW1116]

I have seen the pooched out primers on low charges in my 30-30. There is a fairly large bevel where I cut the crimps out. I'll go back to using a hand driver with the counter sink to cut the crimps. The Frontier brass still had enough crimp left it would flatten primers trying to seat them so I went to a drill with the countersink chucked into it. I don't actually have any factory ammo that I've fired on hand to compare. 90% of my shooting is with my own reloaded ammo. This brass was all range brass scrounged on the same trip. I don't know how many times it's been fired but I know I've only reloaded it once so it goes into my twice fired bucket.

 

[Bazoo]

Flattened primers are not necessarily an indication of high pressure. Let me recount my experience, some of it is considered heretical by the shooting community.

When I started shooting NRA Across the Course Highpower, the M1a ruled the firing line. Most competitors loaded their brass five times and tossed it, to avoid case head separations. No wanted a malfunction at a match because malfunctions ruin your score.

View attachment 1041505

However one shooter, a Distinguished High Master, who incidentally is a great gunsmith, he lubed his 308 Win cases and ran them all season. HM sized his cases with RCBS water soluble lube and then trimmed, primed, charged, and seated the bullet without removing the case lube. His cartridges felt slightly greasy. However that tiny amount of retained case lube was enough to prevent sidewall stretch. HM never had case head separations.

I copied his technic, but I did not like the greasy feel, so I experimented with many lubricants. The best for matches, was rubbing Johnson Paste Wax on the loaded cartridges. The cases were nice and clean, I tumbled them before lubing and then sized and trimmed them. After trimming I washed off the lube in hot soapy water, and then dried the rinsed cases in a toaster oven at low. Only after sizing, priming, dumping the charge and seating the bullet, did I apply Johnson Paste Wax. Why I like Paste wax was because it was dry and not sticky. Dirt did not adhere, I could drop the case on the ground, wipe it, and it was good to go. My fingers were not greasy from case lube at the range. Rubbing paste wax on did take longer than just leaving the case lube on, but that is something I did from match ammunition. Most of the time. Sometimes I did not have enough time between matches and ran cases with the case lube still on.

One of the first things I noticed was, with dry cases in dry chambers, the primers were always flat. However, once I lubed the cases, the primers were rounded. Same everything else. Humm. Something going on.

A dry case adheres to the chamber, and then the sidewalls have to stretch to when the case head moves to the bolt face. Paste wax melts and turns into a lubricant under the temperatures and pressures of combustion. So the cases were sliding to the breech face. That was what prevented sidewall stretch.

R stands for number of times reloaded. All these cases experienced case neck splits or a body split. These failed cases where then sectioned to see if there was a stretch mark.

View attachment 1041506

View attachment 1041507

View attachment 1041508

View attachment 1041509

So why were my lubricated cases not showing flattened primers? This is the clue:

Sako fired brass

View attachment 1041510

Sometimes shooters encounter fired cases with the primer sticking out. This phenomena happens under a couple of conditions. The first condition is good adhesion between the case and chamber. The case is locked to the walls of the chamber during combustion. And, the internal pressures in the case are insufficient to stretch the case sidewalls. But the primer backs out to the bolt face. The end result are these high primers.

I figured out that the primer backs out of the pocket during ignition. If there is clearance between the case head and bolt face, the primer will back out to the bolt face and push the case forward. And then, if pressures are high enough, and case adherence great enough, the sidewalls stretch, and the primer gets stuffed back into the primer pocket. However, the primer has slightly expanded with pressure, so it does not go in rounded. It will look flat.

Since then, I regularly develop loads with lubricated cases. One reason, I want to see the transition from rounded primers to flat primers. I am usually a grain to a couple of grains above a “max load” when I see flat primers. But this is not 100%. Also, I fireform new cases lubricated, so I don’t experience any sidewall stretch.

Such as this. These are 300 H&H cases, at the time about $2.00 each. Probably more now. The base to shoulder distance is not controlled in the chambers of belted magnum rifles, and I did not want to experience case head separations due to excessive clearance between the shoulder of the case, and the shoulder of the chamber. So I lubed the cases on first firing.

View attachment 1041511

View attachment 1041512

Shot well too.

View attachment 1041513

When I lube a case, after firing I have a perfectly fire formed, stress free case. When I resize, I just bump the shoulder back 0.003”.

Many in the shooting community consider the practice of firing lubricated cases heretical. It is a very long story why they believe this, but they were taught this. It is one of the longest and most successful coverups in shooting history, over a century old. And I have written extensively about this, and am not interested in repeating it now.But it starts with the Army, low number Springfields and cupronickel bullets.

With regular loads and lubricated cases, my primers come out rounded. Unless I have some horribly hot load with lubricated cases. Which has happened during load development, and even afterwards when I thought I was under a maximum load. I do not trust primer appearances to show anything unless the cases are fired lubricated. And then primer roundness or flatness is still an unreliable indication of pressure.

The only pressure indications I trust are blown, leaking, or pierced primers. Some of these primers fell out when the case head was turned down, or tapped on a table.

View attachment 1041514

Primer cupping may or may not be a pressure indication, because some manufacturer’s have made bolt faces with extra large primer holes. And those always cup the firing pin.

If your primers can be pushed into the pocket with your thumb, after a couple of firings, the load is way the heck too hot. That is an absolutely reliable indication of excessive pressures.

A sticking bolt is a positive indication of over pressures. I have seen the bolt handles broken off Rem M700 when reloaders use blocks of wood, or their boots, to open the bolt.

This would a positive indication of high pressures

View attachment 1041518

View attachment 1041523

View attachment 1041524

View attachment 1041525


And regardless of the data in a reloading manual, if you ever experience real indications of over pressure conditions cut your loads. I have read a lot of denial on this and have made posters unhappy when I state this and I have received angry replies. Confirmation bias can be an ugly thing. Manuals are just a guide. Powders vary by lot, chambers vary by gun, and it is very possible to get over pressure conditions under the maximum loads shown in manuals. Overpressure means too much powder in the case, so cut the loads.

Thank you for sharing this. Do you have any links to other posts you've made on the subject that have more info?

 

[BBarn]

I would reduce the charge given the primer appearance. Also make sure the OAL of the sized cases is less than the maximum OAL of 1.760". Much of the range pick-up 5.56/223 brass is over 1.760" after sizing and needs to be trimmed.

 

[DMW1116]

LC brass tends to be long so I run them through the Lee lock stud trimmer. A few were short enough they weren’t trimmed but most lost a couple thousandths at least.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have seen the pooched out primers on low charges in my 30-30. There is a fairly large bevel where I cut the crimps out. I'll go back to using a hand driver with the counter sink to cut the crimps. The Frontier brass still had enough crimp left it would flatten primers trying to seat them so I went to a drill with the countersink chucked into it. I don't actually have any factory ammo that I've fired on hand to compare. 90% of my shooting is with my own reloaded ammo. This brass was all range brass scrounged on the same trip. I don't know how many times it's been fired but I know I've only reloaded it once so it goes into my twice fired bucket.

I hate to suggest this but you may need to resort to buying, “the right tool for the job,” and get a primer cup ream/uniform set. It would at least reduce the number of variables and the hand tools are very inexpensive.

 

[Slamfire]

Thank you for sharing this. Do you have any links to other posts you've made on the subject that have more info?

Thanks for liking, but I covered a lot of territory in that post, what specific statement are you interested in?

 

[MEHavey]

The only pressure indications I trust are blown, leaking, or pierced primers.

You and I have always been on the same page on lubed cases minimizing -- if not eliminating -- case stretch.
But can I assume you also add "brass extrusion" to the quote above ?

 

[DMW1116]

I hate to suggest this but you may need to resort to buying, “the right tool for the job,” and get a primer cup ream/uniform set. It would at least reduce the number of variables and the hand tools are very inexpensive.

Now you’re just talking crazy.

 

[Blue68f100]

You know when you over cut your primer pockets when they come out looking like top hats. I can not tell you how may pieces of brass I have thrown into the recycle bin from some one not using the right tool for the job. The reason it's best to move the brass back to where it came from vs removing it. These came from range brass that was given to me. 50% had pierced which is not surprising when you remove 20-25% of the side support. I do not know who mfg these primers.

 

[Charlie98]

Let me recount my experience, some of it is considered heretical by the shooting community.

That's a big one over on the M14 forum.

I do have one question... and this is specifically aimed towards the M1/M1a type of action and bolt... do you ever see/have you ever seen sheared bolt lugs with lubed cartridges? Looking at your photos of the M700 bolt, it's only got 2 lugs as well (as does my Savage,) and no one really worries about sheared lugs in a bolt gun. The theory in the M1a is increased bolt thrust because of the lubed cartridge walls.

Not arguing, and this isn't a tricksy trap question... but I'm curious. You have more experience on the line than I do.

 

[AK Hunter]

Just a flattened primer not high pressure. If it's high pressure you will start getting metal flow around the firing pin punch mark.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Now you’re just talking crazy.

I know. Believe me, it PAINS me to suggest buying a set of cutting tools that only do ONE JOB! But sometimes ya just gotta, for the sake of sanity and reducing the number of variables.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[Charlie98]

My thought on the OP's primers... is perhaps the combination of the LC brass and the different bullet are bumping the pressures up a wee bit. If that was my brass, I'd tap the brakes as well and drop my starting charge down, all else being equal.

Question for you... what chamber does your rifle have?

If it's high pressure you will start getting metal flow around the firing pin punch mark.

2 of the 3 he posted show flow around the firing pin.

 

[Bazoo]

Thanks for liking, but I covered a lot of territory in that post, what specific statement are you interested in?

Nothing specific, just curious to read more about it.

But now that I think about it. How far down the neck do you lube with paste wax? Do you lube the whole case?

Have you tried various case lubes?

Does one shot, who's claim is it doesn't need removing, provide enough slip to avoid case head separation?

 

[MEHavey]

theory in the M1a is increased bolt thrust because of the lubed cartridge wall

If you look it the bolt thrust w/ residual wax/lube coating, vs clean chamber/polished brass, it's about 20% increase.
https://www.varmintal.com/a243z.htm

IMHO well within design loads. and providing offsetting advantage that far outweighs any added thrust.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Flattened primers are not necessarily an indication of high pressure.
[...]
When I lube a case, after firing I have a perfectly fire formed, stress free case. When I resize, I just bump the shoulder back 0.003”.
[...]
Many in the shooting community consider the practice of firing lubricated cases heretical. It is a very long story why they believe this, but they were taught this. It is one of the longest and most successful coverups in shooting history, over a century old. And I have written extensively about this, and am not interested in repeating it now. But it starts with the Army, low number Springfields and cupronickel bullets.

For reference on this, look up "The Single Heat-Treated M1903 Receiver and How It Tied In with the Lubricated Bullet"

With regular loads and lubricated cases, my primers come out rounded. Unless I have some horribly hot load with lubricated cases. Which has happened during load development, and even afterwards when I thought I was under a maximum load. I do not trust primer appearances to show anything unless the cases are fired lubricated. And then primer roundness or flatness is still an unreliable indication of pressure.

AMEN!

And regardless of the data in a reloading manual, if you ever experience real indications of over pressure conditions cut your loads. I have read a lot of denial on this and have made posters unhappy when I state this and I have received angry replies. Confirmation bias can be an ugly thing. Manuals are just a guide. Powders vary by lot, chambers vary by gun, and it is very possible to get over pressure conditions under the maximum loads shown in manuals. Overpressure means too much powder in the case, so cut the loads.

Exactly right. I redacted and inserted a little for the sake of pointing out the pertinent facts. Which are: a light finger-lube of castor oil or beeswax on the case neck above the shoulder is an old trick of Enfield (SMLE) competition shooters. Bolt thrust be darned, a stuck case is far worse, case stretch is real and can be measured, calculated and compensated for, and the old saws about bolt thrust sheering locking lugs are based on short-cut, tight chambers with "Tin Can" cartridges. The old arguments back and forth were settled for me when some of the old hands at Enfield rifle competition over on Mark Bitting's pages (in the pre-2K era, a.k.a. The Dark Ages of the Internet) pointed to the "classic" armorer's habit of lubricating .303 cases in the early days of smokeless to prevent case head separation - and those old war horses were still firing in good nick with their original bolts! four wars later in some instances! The knocks on the old Smelly for weak bolts and case stretch were mostly bunk and it turned out a LIGHT lube of natural, unsalted, raw oil (not tallow as some have suggested - that's just more propaganda) allowed the case to move with the bolt rather than slamming into it when pressures dropped and the chamber released the case.

As I learned it in dynamics and thermo, using an oil that can cook-off under heat and pressure allows the case body to move enough to release the bullet but can still get in the way of timely release - before pressure builds - if it has no place to go - flow. That's part of what Hatcher observed. Battle rifles with longer chambers give that lube some place to go. Swiss chambers are cut to encourage flow, Enfield chambers are to cut to feed dirty ammunition, etc.

Now, I don't have nearly the number of rounds downrange as most of the competitors here but I did at one time enjoy putting little holes in paper targets way farther off than most people can see with iron sights and century-old rifles. Lubing those older cases - 7.5Swiss, .303 Mk.VII, 7.92x57mm, 7.62x54R - helped keep the heads on and the groups small. If you think about the hydrostatics involved with case head thrust/bolt thrust and case neck expansion/bullet release on firing, it begins to make sense. Hatcher's Notebook articles arguing against lubricating cases was based on observed pressure signs in tight, short chambers in high-pressure loads. The M1 Garand is different. But when I started shooting it, I kept up the practice of using a light coating of wax (Mr. Zog's - I was surfing a lot back then) which is mostly paraffin. I did note some blackening around the case mouths but ignored it. When I ran out of Zog's I used Imperial and it works fine, too. Johnson's is beeswax mostly and I have used it before, too. Its doesn't take much.

 

[Charlie98]

Johnson's is beeswax mostly and I have used it before, too. Its doesn't take much.

Didn't happen without pictures...

'It doesn't take much' is a relative term... in fact, this might be a good thread on it's own. I know I'm interested, and it looks like I'm not alone.

 

[lightman]

I loaded up a test batch of 52 grain Barnes Match Burners with H335 to try and improve the groups I shot with TAC. The starting charge was 24.6 grains with a COAL of 2.250”.

I haven't loaded any Barnes bullets but a few friends have had pressure signs with them using a load that was safe with other bullets. I don't know why? Harder material, more bearing surface, ???