Flinching and Self Defense

[Scott Free]

Do people really flinch in a self defense situation?

Today I went out with my new 642 and a variety of ammo, including some +P. After reading about the "fire breathing" recoil or the "mule," I think I developed a flinch. Aimed fire was all over the place. Then I did some rapid point shooting, and was hitting an 11x12 inch plate 3 or 4 time per cylinder at 21 feet.

Here is why I THINK I shot better point shooting: When I focused on the sights, I was by default, focusing on the gun-- and waiting for it to bite me, hence the flinch. When I was point shooting, I was focused on the target, and barely even thought about the gun. No flinch. Maybe. Just my theory. It makes me wonder if people ever flinch during a real self defense situation. I've read that people don't remember hearing the gun during a defensive event. Is flinching even a real problem except in target shooting?

 

[44Magnum]

You know, I have no idea about a defensive situation because I've never been in one. I've spoken to a police officer that I know that has. He basically said that would be the least of your worries because you can't hit the broadside of a barn anyway. This guy is an excellent shot at the range, so I respect his answer. In his case, he unloaded his magazine and ended up hitting the guy twice. That's 25% accuracy hitting a man sized target at close ranges!! This same guy can unload a magazine into the COM of a target and have all the holes touching.

I just don't understand this flinch stuff. Many shooters I know are afflicted with this. Aim the gun, squeeze the trigger until the shot breaks, concentrating on the front sight. Even large bore production handguns are not going to break your hand, there isn't enough energy there.

Paper plate sized target at 21 feet with a 50 - 66% hit rate? You must have a terrible flinch (granted, you're dealing with an airweight snub). Do you have the ability to get some pointers from a good friend, or perhaps even take a few lessons. Often others can see what we can't.

 

[Scott Free]

3 or 4 hits out of 5 is a 60-80% hit rate. (Not 50-66%) Not great, but this was rapid fire with a new and lightweight gun. Not great, but better than I did with sighted shooting.

I don't ALWAYS have a flinch problem. I haven't had it with autos. I think it was all the hype about +P in an airweight. Twenty-some years ago, I was out in the field and plinked off a round from a .22 auto. I wasn't specifically out to shoot at the time so I wasn't wearing glasses. Anyway, when I fired, burning powder came back and hit me in the eye. It took me forever to get over that flinch.

 

[44Magnum]

Whoops, I was thinking six per cylinder.

 

[rcmodel]

I think flinching is a built-in human reflex we have to train ourselves to consciously overcome.

The brain says if an explosion goes off two feet in front of your eyes, and a hard metal object jumps toward your head, you should close them and jerk back to get away from it.

We are hard-wired from birth to do that.

It is obvious from the dismal hit to shots fired ratio we see all the time in police shootings that something bad is going on to mess up otherwise fairly good pistol shooters.

When they are in survival mode in a gunfight, most probably do focus on the threat, and revert back to that hard-wired reflex when an explosion goes off two feet in front of their eyes!

rcmodel

 

[loneviking]

Well, I'm going to disagree about it being 'hard-wired', or something natural. IMO, it's this:
Gun on target...
Front sight....
Finger on trigger....
Squeeze, squeeze, squeeze....(should I shoot? Golly gee, is this really a good idea?)
Squeeze...when it it going to go off?

When what's going on should be...
Gun swings up..
Front sight acquires target
Squeeze hard as I'm really pissed at this mother$*%& and it's time for them to go down!

Get it? I'm not thinking about the gun as I've done these actions many time both dry and live. My entire focus is on the threat and taking them out. You won't even notice the flash or the noise. I know, I've done it.

 

[Steve C]

I would think the main problem in a self defense situation is jerking the trigger, not exactly flinching. You want the gun to go off "NOW" and are not squeezing.

 

[Wildfire]

44 mag and Rc are right.

Hey There:
First things first. Flinching is caused 98% from the noise. If you are near someone using a hammer you tend to blink at every strike. If someone gave you a sharp blow to the chest or arm you likely would not blink.

Double up on the ear protection when target shooting it helps a lot with the flinch ...
Second in a self defence situation I highly doubt that fliching would be an issue.... Accuracy might be. But your emotions are going to be so high at that point that the small stuff will not effect you. You may be shaking uncontrolablely but it will not be from the fear of recoil or the bang. At that point the gun will become a TOOL..... No different then a ball bat or big stick. They must all be used properly or you will become the one getting hurt. Good self defence practice will be different then your average day at the range plinking... Just being able to get the gun out in time and not blowing your foot off is a better place to focus your attention.
In real selfdefence ordeals you will likely not be standing facing your attacker in some kind of fast draw contest... But rather and more then likely having to fire your weapon on the move like getting out of Dodge style. Or on your knees behind a couch. Or from the seat of your car. These things can put a totally new twist on your practice....
Try shooting while walking backwards away from your target sometime. You must hit it or be hit... Never empty your gun.... That is like getting caught with your pants down around your ankles . You can't run and you can't hide.
This may change your self defence style of practice.... It also has to be safe.. But in a real deal NOTHING is Safe....

 

[moooose102]

here is a pointer i picked up that may help you. get an inexpensive laser, one that will mount to the trigger gaurd. you will not be leaving it there, it is just for practice. then either get some snap caps, or just use fired cases. most guns are ok to dry fire with empty chambers, but empty cartridges cost you nothing, and it gives the firing pin something to hit. anyway, the most productive way is either have a freind watch where the laser goes, or video tape the session. shoot (dry fire) like normal, concentrating on the sights of the gun and the target like you were actually shooting live rounds. have your freind see what is happening with the laser as you shoot. that will tell you a lot. if, you practice with no problems showing up, you may have to shoot some live ammo to make the part of your brain that fears the recoil work like it does. but same thing goes. see what the laser is doing. that will tell you what you are doing. then you can work twoards solving the problem. i can tell you from shooting large magnum rifles that flinching CAN be overcome. but it does take some work, practice, and patience. good luck, keep shooting, and have patience. p.s. if you can, one way to help is to shoot down loaded ammo for a while, gradually increasing the power. that way, you will get used to it little by little and eventually work up to full power loads. but that option is not available to all people.

 

[indiandave]

Load your gun with just 3 cartridges. Spin the cylinder. now close it. fire at your target. when you hit an empty cylinder you can see if you are flinching.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

Differences between shooting on a range and a self-defense situation:

On the range, your priority is to put holes in the target.

In a gunfight, your priority is not to get hit.

The things you (and your adversary) do to not get hit adversely effect your ability to get a hit.
Examples:
You are moving.
Your adversary is moving.
You and your adversary are interacting with the environment, using cover or concealment, providing only small parts of the body to hit.
Environmental factors: Lighting is generally poor.
The attack is unexpected and you are not immediately prepared to react.
Target determination can be a problem.
In SD situations, you may be shooting one handed, while navigating, pushing a loved one to safety, or holding something else in your other hand. (yes, I know you should immediately discard items in your other hand, but statistically, this happens rarely).
You watch the threat instead of the sights.
Trigger control is poor due to stress, resulting in convulsively slapping the trigger.

It isn't who has the greater skill but
who keeps the cooler head that will prevail.

 

[Jim K]

The first rule to remember in a self-defense situation is that there are no rules. People who think about and try to follow the rules quickly gain a name - corpse.

Jim

 

[mercop]

Fired four rounds of OO buck during a shooting and do not remember any recoil.

 

[Byron Quick]

I have never remembered recoil when shooting at an animal while hunting. And that's shooting .35 Remington, .300 WinMag, and .35 Whelen.

Another thing that helps me is familiarity. When I started shooting my .300 WinMag before hunting season, I have a noticeable flinch. By the end of hunting after numberous range sessions and (usually) several deer kills, I have none.

I've heard that many people benefit by having range sessions with a firearm with a gentler recoil and working the way up to harder recoiling weapons. I'm the opposite. After shooting a box or so through a .458 WinMag, I'm ready to use the .300 WinMag for plinking.

 

[pictoblu]

Dude, You want to eliminate flinch, then go for the g30, like I did. G30 is 45acp, nothing like it, believe me I would not lie to you or any other of my gunny bro and sis.

Then use your 642 as ny back-up. Is GREAT as that.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Load your gun with just 3 cartridges. Spin the cylinder. now close it. fire at your target. when you hit an empty cylinder you can see if you are flinching.

Yup, and that's the way I eliminated the flinch firing my .44 mag. Didn't realize I had one until I tried that. I don't think I flinch on any of my guns now.

 

[JKimball]

Flinching is caused 98% from the noise.

Maybe it is more accurate to say it is the anticipation of the noise, (and I would say recoil too.)

I've seen a lot of people flinch when the hammer drops on a dummy round producing a quiet "click."

I've also noticed that when I teach someone to shoot my pistol they usually drill the bullseye with their first shot, then the shots start to wander after that, because now they start anticipating the recoil and noise that happens when they pull the trigger.

I can see flinching being a problem in a gunfight if someone is actually afraid of the gun. But I'm guessing that misses in a gun fight are probably more often caused by people not getting a sight picture on the target.

 

[Old Guy]

Actual shootings

The reality of a self defense shooting from the view of two participants.

Shooting #1 Security individual, job, fixing/filling ATMs vehicle, small plain van. Other guys vehicle, Firebird, two in each vehicle, traffic situation, Car bumped Van at lights, both Security Officers exited.
Driver armed, passenger new hire, no firearm permit as yet, but big guy, 6'2" 210lbs, no damage to rear bumper, turned to re-enter Van, lights had changed.

Driver of Firebird headed for drivers door of van, pulled mirror off, punched driver of van in the head, then turned to help his half brother with the big guy, who had all ready been badly cut to the side of the head by the pint glass that the passenger of the Firebird was drinking rum out of, in the rear seat! the driver had done a lot of boxing, collecting a criminal record on the way, as well.

Brothers now swapped sides, passenger brother with just the handle of the pint glass, and a big sharp chunk of it left sticking out, headed for driver of security van, who with glasses knocked off, face bleeding, saw the glass heading his way, drew his S&W .38 Special model 64, punched it to point shoulder as taught, and issued the challenge I was teaching at that time "Stop, I have a gun" he did not, and was shot through the heart from inches away.

No recoil felt, no bang heard, saw face in front of him go blank, half a step back, and fell.

Shooting #2 Brinks messenger heading back to Vehicle, oven cleaner sprayed in face, bag grabbed, robber heading away, gave chase, a few steps behind, stopped to wipe eyes, in coming around the corner saw robber crouched behind a telegraph pole, aiming pistol at him (Colt 45 loaded with hardball) dove to the ground, gravel, drew pistol in mid air! heard gun fire, felt hit in leg, felt like bits of gravel he later said, my Liverpool accent in his ear said "Front sight, Front sight" which he saw, and fired twice, as trained at that time (38 Special Mod 10) he stood and headed over to the wounded ex robber and put the boots to him! dragged off him by Police Officer who was on scene. Said Cop schooled him on what to say (no I was not there, just my voice!)

He saw sight, heard a muted version of shots, felt kick in his hand, mild, and dropped sight back down for second shot, he felt it was not hurried, but the bystanders said it was two very quick shots.

The 45 bullet had split into two, both hitting the calf of one leg, not a serious wound. "It started hurting 15 minutes later! a lot!"

No one who ever drew a gun remembered drawing it, it was just in hand.

 

[Old Guy]

Help!

Lee Lapin

Help Lee, my laptop kept posting "Will not go" so I kept sending messages, please get rid of the extra ones!

Thank you. Mike.

 

[Fred Fuller]

OG, better make sure you have the proper paperwork on that keyboard- it's selective fire!

lpl

 

[Old Guy]

Good stuff

Thank you Lee!

 

[Old Guy]

A FLINCH story

A good friend a Sgt. in a big City PD, they went to Glock 22 .40 calibre pistols, from .38 Spl; Revolvers, he wasn't doing well!

I had him (asked!) attend at the Range just after I had finished a class, the 4 targets had just had 20 rounds fired at them each (test at completion was 20 shots) one magazine change on Glock 17s, and two speed loads, plus two single rounds to prove to me they knew which way the Cylinder turned on the Mod;10/64 S&W Revlovers, and to make up the twenty, all .38 Spl; or 9mm.

The most you could score with one hit was 5 points, 20X5 = 100 points, and also 100%.

A score of 80% was a pass, more than two misses a fail, one re-shoot was allowed. Target had a 18" block, 6" wide top of 6" head to bottom of sternum, if you would, the total width 18", the 6" on each side of the center block was separated to make two 3" strips on the outside (arms) scored 2 points, the rest scored 4. You could not see the lines past 5 yards.

Forty was bigger, no need to patch (Bone idle Firearms Instructor) targets.

Seven yards, he was pulling shots 4" low, 15 yards, about ten inches! Most centered though.
The target the PD used had the ten ring 12" below the neck, after a couple of boxes of S&W forty's, (and lots of instruction!) not much improvement, it was re-qualification day, the day after!

My advice... Aim at neck! shots should now be in their ten ring, he aced the test the next day! After two more re-quals with aiming at neck, hitting ten ring (two per year) third time, cluster of rounds in the neck, and just below!
Right to point of aim.

How did I stop the flinch? I didn't, he just stopped doing it, then he retired!