Flintlock versus Caplock

[nomadboi]

I'm looking to get into muzzleloaders, primarily from a theatrical/re-enactment point of view. For what I want to do, a flintlock would probably be more accurate than a caplock, but I have no idea how big a difference it'll make in terms of convenience, reliability, etc.

Any thoughts from those with more experience? How difficult is it to maintain your flints and make them work properly & consistently, as compared to using caps?

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[BigG]

Flintlock is a learning experience. Caplock is almost like firing a cartridge weapon, hence lots of beginners like it. With flintlock, you need to develop your skill until it's almost like firing a cartridge weapon. It can be done but it takes some learning beyond measuring a charge and seating a patched ball.

Hope some of the advanced flinters chime in to give you some guidance. Good luck!

 

[MEDDAC19]

What makes you say that a flintlock would be more accurate than a cap lock. These differences are only the manner in which the main charge is ignited. The accuracy is a matter of the barrel, rifling, crown, and projectile fired. Many find that cap locks' are more accurate for them due to a quicker lock time.

A truly fine tuned flintlock will fire just as quick. For casual re-enactors percussion caps will usually be easier to fire consistently, and are less finicky in wet or humid conditions..

If you mean accurate as to the time period I think some research will be a better judge of what type you would want. To the crowds watching, most probably couldn't tell the difference while holding one in their hands.

Are you also worrying as to whether you should get a musket verses a rifle? I think you should check with the group you are planning to join up with, and go by their recommendations.

 

[Phillip Allen]

50 shots outa one flint then 4 outa the next...slow lock time but unimportant in blank shooting...practice with glasses on!

 

[nomadboi]

Thanks for the input. By accurate, yes, I mean appropriate to the time period (think pirates, not civil war). The acts I've worked with don't currently involve any percussion firearms, so this is a new beast to learn and there are no guidelines as of yet. I'd mostly be firing blank charges (powder held in with some flash paper), but I'm interested in seeing what the real experience is like of trying to hit a target as well.

So the issue with flints... is it getting it lined up properly so it will spark in the right way?

I agree that most people won't know the difference, so I'm still willing to go either way on this. Whatever model I can find and afford (and I'll probably go with one of the build-it-yourself kits from somewhere) will probably be slightly later era anyway, but ah well. It'll still go boom and look cool.

 

[arcticap]

You might not want to buy an inexpensive kit to build one if you want reliability though. Kits are usually more expensive in the end because of the added costs of tools & materials, and there can also be more problems that may require expert gunsmithing to properly tune the lock or correct vent or other ignition problems. The vent has to be positioned right, and sometimes the vent diameter is too small and needs to be drilled out to have a larger diameter vent liner installed. Even the inexpensive factory finished guns will sometimes need similar work done to them to achieve better performance, like if a frizzen is not hardened properly or alignment is off etc... not usually but sometimes there are lemons, and kits are known to have more defects than factory finished guns. Unfortunately, kits aren't usually warranteed, except for maybe some critical parts. It's often more cost effective to buy a [lightly] used one that's in good working order from someone who has simply lost interest in shooting. And if you can shoot it beforehand, so much the better. Buying from a gun auction site can give you an inspection period, and even if the barrel isn't perfect, it's reliabilty that you're most concerned about. So you can save some money that way.
Also, Thompson Center guns have a transferable, no nonsense lifetime warranty. Just send it in and they will fix anything and return it to you for free. They have incredible customer service. Even if your rifle just eats flints (which the older ones are known to do), they will usually replace the old style hammer with one of newer and better geometry. No one else can match them. Not too long ago someone here bought one for $100, a real bargain.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[gezzer]

My Quality Flintlock, lock only, on my rifle costs more than the average completed Caplock commercial rifle. It also has a faster lock time than most side lock percussions I do not care who by TC, Lyman, Traditions Etc.

Flints are great but you will have to learn all about them. Join a Black powder club and there will be flintlock shooters who will show you the easy way.

 

[Plink]

From a theatrical perspective, a flintlock puts on a more impressive performance with the fire and smoke belching from the lock as well as the muzzle. Learning to use one comes with experience, but they're not complicated or hard to learn. The biggest concern is the flint itself. After a few shots, they tend to need wiped to remove shavings, then after a few more they need knapped (sharpened). A good flint such as the english black flints sold by Track of the Wolf, last for a good many shots though.

 

[1911 guy]

I shoot flint for squirrels.

Flinters are a lot of fun, but there are some things you do need to know.

Unless you are either very handy or very lucky, don't get a kit for your first rock lock. Alignment of the flash hole and pan is critical to reliable performance.

Each rifle is unique as far as position of flint and amount of charge in the pan. There are general guidelines that will work, but fine tuning is essential to shooting it accurately.

Once you learn your particular rifle (or pistol) the reliability is the same. Wipe the frizzen often in damp weather and change your primer charge often.

 

[RockRifle]

Flintlock is a learning experience. Caplock is almost like firing a cartridge weapon, hence lots of beginners like it. With flintlock, you need to develop your skill until it's almost like firing a cartridge weapon. It can be done but it takes some learning beyond measuring a charge and seating a patched ball.

Big G is right, you learn how to gauge your rock, how to keep it clean, sharp, and functional. We recommend that shooters fire a caplock for a year before they go to a flintlock because you learn the drill of loading a muzzleloader without fighting with making fire. A caplock is (almost) guaranteed fire on every shot.(compared to a flint!)

What makes you say that a flintlock would be more accurate than a cap lock. These differences are only the manner in which the main charge is ignited. The accuracy is a matter of the barrel, rifling, crown, and projectile fired. Many find that cap locks' are more accurate for them due to a quicker lock time.

Sorry, Meddac19, the flinter's are usually used by more experienced shooters, who, due to differences in flash time due to weather effects on muzzleloaders, practice better followthrough. ( meaning they hold on the target all the way through the shot.)
Flintlocks have external ignition, which makes them more prone to gum up in humid conditions. Experience teachs you how to keep shooting. (sometimes other's experience helps too!)
Caplocks inherently have the a weakness in the turn the flash must take in travelling from the cap down the nipple to reach the powder charge. This area can plug up in moist conditions or get wet and cause hangfires. (I used to call this flintlock practice!)
I thought at one time that a matchlock would be more challenge than a flintlock, until I shot flinter, and realized that constant fire(in the match) was not the challenge that making fire with a rock for every single shot was.
Ultimately, yes, it is the rifling of the barrel and the trigger and the sights that helps determine the accuracy of the rifle; but do not forget that in blackpowder shooting, where the shots are all offhand, the human element cannot be discounted, and the best shooter will prevail at the end of the day.

nomadboi and enkindler; The Gunworks in Springfield Oregon has a good stock of the holy black, as well as everything else you might want... They sell online or are right off I-5 if you are headed south.

 

[enkindler]

nomadboi,

I see we are neighbors, I have lots of fun with both style rifles but realize that if you go with a flintlock you will need to mail order in some FFFFg powder to prime the pan. You can use the substitutes for the main charge but not for the pan.

The only reason I mention this is that nobody in this area sells real black powder. So be ready to order 5lbs of mixed powder from a mail order source as that seems to be the minimum anyone will sell.

Best of luck and watch out they are addicting.

 

[TGeorge]

Priming powder

I use FFF in my pan with no problem. I used to take the FFF and grind it down between two plastic spoons to make it finer - but found that wasn't necessary.

I have also read somewhere that no original "priming horns" have ever been found for flintlocks but I guess absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.

I shoot a Thompson Center and a custom made Hawken Rifle I built and both have excellent locks and "coned" vents in a vent hole bushing which helps I suppose - no noticeable hesitation.

 

[nomadboi]

enkindler, where do you shoot?

I might just have to check out that store in Oregon some day.
For now, I went ahead and ordered a Lyman Plains pistol kit from Midway, since I had a birthday discount to use.

I'd definitely be interested in knowing if there's any local blackpowder clubs or anywhere else to do some in-person learning around here, though.

Thanks,
Kevin

 

[Jim K]

Great discussion on accuracy, but Nomadboi already explained that he meant accurate for the period, not accuracy in firing a shot.

The major problem of flintlocks today is that they are generally of poor quality, with soft hammers (frizzens) and poorly placed touch holes. Waterproof pans, once almost a necessity, are now unknown. Good flints are hard to come by, and telling people that a good flintlock should fire upside down will get a laugh at most shoots.

Most of the flintlocks on the market today would not have been thought acceptable as native trade guns in the late 18th century in England.

Jim

 

[TGeorge]

"The major problem of flintlocks today is that they are generally of poor quality, with soft hammers (frizzens) and poorly placed touch holes. Waterproof pans, once almost a necessity, are now unknown. Good flints are hard to come by, and telling people that a good flintlock should fire upside down will get a laugh at most shoots."

What about Siler Locks - if you can find one - and locks by Chambers? These go for high prices and are used in custom guns. I suppose the mass produced locks are not very good, but you CAN replace a lock on a mass produced rifle and if you are handy enough, reharden a frizzen or resurface it if is worn.

I don't know about firing a flinter upside down, but get a tape of the
"Gunsmith of Greenville County" This guy takes a flinlock and files the pan and pan cover so well that it makes a waterproof seal. He primes the pan, immerses the lock in a barrel of water, then removes it after a few seconds and BANG - off it goes.

Generally when my flinters don't go off its because the flint needs retouching, replacing or cleaning. I have an old Thompson Center Flintlock and a Hawken with an older quality lock I built myself ( the gun - not the lock!!).

 

[mec]

The Muzzle Loaders Associations International Committee affiliated clubs manage to hobble right along with the modern Pedersolis and others.

 

[enkindler]

nomadboi,

I use to shoot at the renton fish and game club but their rules have gotten to the point where I won't go there. With modern rifles you are only allowed to load one round at a time and with the holy black they count swabbing your bore every few times as "cleaning" which is also forbidden.

if you find a good private club let me know