FMJ or Hollow point in small auto?

[oldfool]

If the gun is picky about ammo, then I would never use it for defense. There are so many good designs to choose from that there is no reason not to have a gun that can work with JHPs and FMJ ammunition.

If you're trying to save a buck, you're in the wrong game and have the wrong attitude. The gun is a life saving device. Owning a finicky self-defense gun is like buying $2 fire extinguisher for the the local fire department.

any recommendations re: what you consider to be of adequate quality ?

 

[kokapelli]

Sure. So, again, if you subscribe to it, then stick with your twenty two and hope that you get lucky or psych your assailant out.

It's plus pee for me.

Who said anything about a 22?

 

[huntsman]

Any of you guys carry the Buffalo Bore hardcast stuff in your .380's? I use the 100gr hardcast .380+p load in my lcp. 1100fps out of a lcp, and that hardcast nose will supposedly tear tissue a lot better than a round nose fmj.

I use both the +P hardcast and FMJ in my BDA and it functions great, I just don't use it in the LCP because of Ruger's warning.

 

[oldfool]

I use both the +P hardcast and FMJ in my BDA and it functions great, I just don't use it in the LCP because of Ruger's warning.

meaning no deliberate offense to others, but... you said
BDA
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

there is "380" and then there is Colt and Browning
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

 

[Fastcast]

meaning no deliberate offense to others, but... you said
BDA
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

there is "380" and then there is Colt and Browning
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

Ah....Lets not forget the manufacturer of that particular .380 Browning and the real deal: ....... Beretta

 

[BADUNAME37]

Ah....Lets not forget the manufacturer of that particular .380 Browning and the real deal: ....... Beretta

Wow, SWEET GUN, REAL SWEET!

 

[Manco]

Sorry, pal. What part of E=mv2 don't you understand.

What part of E=½mv² did you forget?

And if you don't believe it, then stick with your twenty two.

Why when a wider wound channel would be more effective? In service-class handgun calibers, energy is the means by which the work of bullets is accomplished, which is drilling tunnels through people, which are in turn characterized by penetration and expansion, despite your dismissal. What is NOT proven is that the portion of a handgun bullet's energy that does not do this work and is dispersed into the body actually causes effective wounding.

The latter is what we all presume you meant by "delivered energy" since you told everybody to forget about penetration and expansion. While the rest of us mull over whether this energy has any wounding effect whatsoever, you have quite the challenge of proving that it matters a lot more than drilling tunnels through people.

I think I'll stick to my FMJ's thanks
http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf

One inch of penetration? Something's not right here, either with the ammo or the coroner. And while I'm not into tattoos, the dead perp made some rather thoughtful choices in his, I must say.

 

[sidheshooter]

I said it in my last post, I'll say it again. We have no concrete idea about what those bullets are going to do in real life. Look at that unexpanded 180gr. Gold Dot set vertically next to the spine in the neck; that's not something most would have predicted when discussing .40 S&W GDHP performance. This guy must not have spent enough time reading the Internet...

 

[huntsman]

meaning no deliberate offense to others, but... you said
BDA
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

there is "380" and then there is Colt and Browning
but you knowed that, didn't you ?

I've got to be honest, I have no idea what you are asking??

 

[dispatch]

I go FMJ even in the 45ACP. A pistol round needs penetration above all else.

 

[oldfool]

Ah....Lets not forget the manufacturer of that particular .380 Browning and the real deal: ....... Beretta

no dispute from my small corner of the peanut gallery !
(but inspiration do deserve some credit, you know)

insert some smileys here

 

[Fastcast]

Wow, SWEET GUN, REAL SWEET!

That one's not actually mine.....Mine/wife's has the OEM wood grips on the nickel finish.....I really do like those black grips and screws though!! I can't seem to find any like those and he's been asked several times on another forum where he got them but he never responds. :banghead:

 

[oldfool]

I've got to be honest, I have no idea what you are asking??

sorry about that
just inclined to think that folks who shoot BDAs (and/or Colts, even if made by Beretta or whoever) are luckier than most.. and comparisons to "other" ain't entirely fair, you know

meaning no special offense to "others"
(just envious of those who shoot BDAs, ((YOU)) but not so envious as too be seriously ashamed of my Colt, you know)

 

[FTSESQ]

I go JHP in my 380. As long as they feed well, FMJ's will always be stocked in my mags.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

MANCO writes:

One inch of penetration?

That claim is misinformation posted in the NTOA Blog (page 6 of the FBI presentation) that went viral after an FBI agent posted it to the FBI intranet. Page 19 states:

It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less penetration in a human body.

Note inconsistencies in the NTOA Blog post:

All of the rounds expanded fully...

The Medical Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition...

sidheshooter writes:

Look at that unexpanded 180gr. Gold Dot set vertically next to the spine in the neck; that's not something most would have predicted when discussing .40 S&W GDHP performance.

The bullet appears to have passed through automotive sheetmetal and the hollowpoint was clogged by a disc of sheet metal as it passed through.

Note the FBI report states:

There is plenty of inaccurate information regarding ballistics/terminal performance disseminated on web forums, even those which are dedicated as LE only.

[The officers' ammunition was tested by the FBI with the following results:]
• Consistent with all bare gelatin and barrier testing done previously for ammunition data CD.

• Results of Speer 180 gr. Gold Dot satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.

• Results of Hornady 55gr. and 75 gr. TAP do not satisfy FBI standards for terminal performance.

Harvey writes:

Screw all of the talk about penetration and expansion. An off-the-shelf SD jacketed hollow point is more than likely to come in +P velocities (and vice versa). And that's what counts as far as delivered energy, regardless if it's comparable weight FMJ ball or hollow point projectiles.

Note the fight stopping energy delivered by multiple .223 hits:

• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.

• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed.

Harvey also writes:

Sorry, pal. What part of E=mv2 don't you understand.

It appears the bad guy in the FBI report didn't understand and he didn't react the way he was "supposed to".

Indeed the FBI advises:

• Determined individuals can sustain many gunshot wounds in areas that produce great pain and continue to fight a long time, even without the aid of drugs or alcohol.

• Shot placement is everything in a gunfight and always the key to stopping a threat effectively.

 

[benEzra]

Note the fight stopping energy delivered by multiple .223 hits:
Quote:
• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the elbow.

• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get handcuffed.

If I'm not mistaken, the .223's in that incident failed because those that failed to hit bone neither expanded nor fragmented, and instead zipped right on through; I believe 13 of 16 exited the perpetrator, which is almost unheard of for .223 and reflects what a crappy load choice that was. In this case, the chosen load had way, way too much penetration and caused icepick wounds unless they hit bone, which is a serious failure.

To reiterate, the .223 rounds here seemed to fail because they offered too much penetration and hence too little tissue damage. Maximum effectiveness is a happy medium between penetration on one hand, and wound channel width and/or energy delivery on the other. Maxing either one to ridiculous extremes at the expense of the other will cause less than ideal results.

 

[kokapelli]

Sorry, pal. What part of E=mv2 don't you understand.

And if you don't believe it, then stick with your twenty two.

There is an old saying that goes something like "Figures Lie And Liars Figure."

Well that's only half true, figures don't lie but figures can be manipulated to prove what ever you want them too.

I prefer plain old logic and based on all that I have read and I have read plenty on the subject, I will stick with fmj for my 380s and you can use the shallower penetrating jhp and your 22.

I would like to add one more website regarding fmj vs jhp........
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26.htm

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If I'm not mistaken, the .223's in that incident failed because those that failed to hit bone neither expanded nor fragmented, and instead zipped right on through; I believe 13 of 16 exited the perpetrator, which is almost unheard of for .223 and reflects what a crappy load choice that was. In this case, the chosen load had way, way too much penetration and caused icepick wounds unless they hit bone, which is a serious failure.

I'm unable to determine what happened, exactly with the 55gr and 75gr Hornady TAP bullets (the small white spots in the x-rays, in the area of the hips, appear to be .223 fragments - indeed the right pelvis is fractured), however the FBI reports:

The performance of the .223 TAP ammunition, although consistent with manufacturer’s claims, did not perform terminally as this Police Department expected.

55gr TAP

Bullet: 55 gr. TAP URBAN®
B.C.: .255 S.D.: .157
Muzzle Velocity: 2910 fps
Barrel: 16"
Twist Rate: 1 in 9"
Total Penetration: 8.75"
Max. Cavity: 4.25"
Depth to Max. Cav.: 5"
Entry: .5"
Retained Weight: 17 gr.

75gr TAP

Bare Gelatin:
Bullet: 75 gr. BTHP TAP®
B.C.: .395 S.D.: .214
Muzzle Velocity: 2609 fps
Barrel: 16"
Twist Rate: 1 in 9"
Total Penetration: 12"
Max. Cavity: 5.5"
Depth to Max. Cav.: 5.25"
Entry: .5"
Retained Weight: 21 gr

 

[benEzra]

I went back and checked, and I was correct; 13 of 16 of the .223 hits exited:

Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage.

So we have sixteen rounds hit the suspect; one hits the hip and shatters it, one "strikes" the aorta, one "pierces" a lung. Thirteen rounds exit (possibly including the aorta and lung shot). I dare say that a load with less penetration and more expansion/fragmentation would likely have performed better.

Having said that, .32 ACP is a completely different animal from .223 Remington in terms of velocity and energy, so I'm not arguing cavitation effects in .32 or anything of that nature, just pointing out that too little upset and too much penetration can lead to a failure just like too much upset and too little penetration can.

 

[GLOOB]

If the .223's completely shattered the guy's pelvis, pierced his aorta, and caused massive internal damage, that's not a failure of the bullet. The guy just didn't want to quit. This PD can keep looking for their death-ray-in-a-can, but the bullet did what it was supposed to.

 

[GLOOB]

In 9mm I strongly prefer HP.

In .380/.32 I'd prefer FMJ, but not going to bother me too much either way.

In .45, same thing but reversed. I prefer +P HP, but I don't feel too bad loaded with standard velocity ball.

 

[philip964]

I have been thinking about alternating FMJ and hollow point in the magazine. That would be three of each, starting with the FMJ.

Anything wrong with doing that? The recoil would be slightly different.

Assuming double taps the BG would get one of each.

 

[chihuahuatn]

"http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf "

That is only ONE case, hardly anything of importance to change any opinion regardless of who publishes it. Now a literature review with a meta analysis regarding LEO ammo performance in the last 10 years might carry some weight. Bullets to funny things when they hit people and are not always predicable. To many variables to accurately predict anything. The truer statement is that bullets are predictably unpredictable. Any surgeon who deals regularly in GSW trauma can tell you that.

Now on to the original post, what ever ammo functions reliably in your gun and allows you to put more holes in your target quickly is what you need to use. FMJ or HP a case can be made for both.

 

[North Bender]

...a literature review with a meta analysis ...

???

Sorry, I'll go you heads on with college degrees, but this doesn't work on the forum.

 

[Manco]

I dare say that a load with less penetration and more expansion/fragmentation would likely have performed better.

Far from being a bold statement, that's the general consensus in regard to .223/5.56x45mm specifically. One major problem in this case is that these loads seem to perform fine in ballistic gelatin but overpenetrate in actual targets. The other major problem is that even when they performed exactly as advertised, they failed to sufficiently alter the behavior of this particular bad guy, who continued fighting until a .40 S&W bullet disabled his arm and he was physically overpowered and restrained by LEOs.

So basically, while a number of the bullets performed fine in terms of general wounding, none exhibited any real stopping power aside from precisely where they hit. The .223 rounds may have caused his mortal wounds, but they didn't stop him or even slow him down by much in a timely manner. A .40 S&W round may have stopped him enough for the LEOs to move in, but it was a hit to his arm rather than his COM (where most of us try to aim, of course). Such is the nature of shootings.

This is why over time I've generally placed more and more emphasis on ammo capacity and being able to shoot fast (with reasonable accuracy), whatever the caliber you're using (even when using a high-powered rifle). One can stress shot placement until one is blue in the face, but the implication always seems to be that precise aim is what you need, when in reality it's awfully hard to place shots so precisely in a real gunfight. If the bad guy would hold perfectly still for a second and not shoot back, then sure, all I'd need to drop him immediately and permanently is a single shot, but things just don't work that way in the real world. Sometimes reality is easier, with the bad guys running away at the mere sight of a gun, and other times the bad guys fight back like crazy and never let you get a clean shot at them. As disappointing as this may seem, in most self-defense situations ultimately capacity and shooting speed (all aimed shots) are more relevant to effective shot placement than great accuracy.

Having said that, .32 ACP is a completely different animal from .223 Remington in terms of velocity and energy, so I'm not arguing cavitation effects in .32 or anything of that nature, just pointing out that too little upset and too much penetration can lead to a failure just like too much upset and too little penetration can.

Right, although overpenetration in handgun calibers is not quite as much of a waste as it is with small-diameter rifle calibers, it still is a waste of wounding potential. What I do is pick a level of penetration that I prefer and then find a load that expands just the right amount to achieve it. While I do err on the side of penetration more than most people, I still use JHP loads for defensive purposes whenever possible. With smaller calibers like .32 ACP and .380 ACP, I'd switch to FMJ and controlled expansion JHP (or wadcutter rounds if practical), respectively.