FMJ vs LEAD
- Thread starter wep45
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orionengnr
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FMJ bullets are copper jacketed.
Lead bullets are...umm...lead.
Both are softer than the steel barrel. Neither should cause any wear on the revolver.
Lead will foul a barrel, but can be cleaned out easily.
Copper will do likewise, albeit to a lesser degree. It can also be cleaned out easily.
Neither is a major deal with a pistol; somewhat moreso with a rifle, although neither is enough to stop reloaders from pressing on.
Lead bullets are...umm...lead.
Both are softer than the steel barrel. Neither should cause any wear on the revolver.
Lead will foul a barrel, but can be cleaned out easily.
Copper will do likewise, albeit to a lesser degree. It can also be cleaned out easily.
Neither is a major deal with a pistol; somewhat moreso with a rifle, although neither is enough to stop reloaders from pressing on.
Jacketed bullets will cause more wear than lead which is much softer than jacket material. I don't know if anyone has done an actual test to see what the diffrence is between jacketed and lead but I'm such it's significant.
Most manuals I have read say you will never shoot out a barrel shooting lead bullets.
Most manuals I have read say you will never shoot out a barrel shooting lead bullets.
Yes, jacketed bullets cause much more rapid wear. Velocity is a big part of it, too. Jacketed bullets at 800fps do much less than jacketed ones at 1400fps for clear reasons.
A good "street level" comparison test is to spend enough time at guns shows checking out the barrels of ex-military 1911s, and old police S&W 38s. You will see plenty of wear on the average 1911 with much service life to it and shooting FMJ. You rarely see a S&W barrel, even one with hard use, that has been worn much at all from a lifetime of 148gr and 158 gr lead rounds.
That said, by the time you shoot enough commercially loaded jacketed ammo out of 686 to wear the barrel appreciably, you will have shot four or five times the cost of the gun in ammo. At that point, the barrel or even the gun is a "wear" item. So I don't think it's a big issue unless you are shooting thousands and thousands of jacket rounds a year.
A good "street level" comparison test is to spend enough time at guns shows checking out the barrels of ex-military 1911s, and old police S&W 38s. You will see plenty of wear on the average 1911 with much service life to it and shooting FMJ. You rarely see a S&W barrel, even one with hard use, that has been worn much at all from a lifetime of 148gr and 158 gr lead rounds.
That said, by the time you shoot enough commercially loaded jacketed ammo out of 686 to wear the barrel appreciably, you will have shot four or five times the cost of the gun in ammo. At that point, the barrel or even the gun is a "wear" item. So I don't think it's a big issue unless you are shooting thousands and thousands of jacket rounds a year.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
More wear yes, considerably more wear, I wouldn't go that far. If you're trying to decide which to shoot and you are talking about practice ammo I would go with the lead just because they are cheaper to shoot.
BTW, I don't know anyone who has shot out a S&W M686 barrel yet. I'm sure the Pros who shoot over 50,000 rounds a year can shoot out a barrel but not us mere mortals.
BTW, I don't know anyone who has shot out a S&W M686 barrel yet. I'm sure the Pros who shoot over 50,000 rounds a year can shoot out a barrel but not us mere mortals.
i made a bullet trap, steel plates welded with 1/4 inch plate 45 degrees down with a rubber mat for the front. all my bullets are caught and i remelt and recast. the cost for my .38 special loads is kept at about 3.5 cents. of course that's for reloading and casting. i also get no fouling from it.
1858rem
Member
what do you pay for primers?
bluetopper
Member
I own a reloading press and I wouldn't even consider using jacketed bullets.
I even shoot full house 44 Mag cast lead bullets that don't lead my barrel, so I see no need for the added cost of jacketed.
I even shoot full house 44 Mag cast lead bullets that don't lead my barrel, so I see no need for the added cost of jacketed.
bandit31985
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Good thread how do you clean a heavily leaded gun? hopes 9 doesnt seam to work and sweets 7.62 wont do the trick either. Do i need some good copper brushes?
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Sweets will etch your barrel if you're not careful. The Ammonia isn't good for any barrel.
As for removing lead, I use Hoppe's #9 Copper Remover. I let it sit for about 20 minutes and it loosens us the lead enough to remove with a brass brush. If that's not enough try and find some brass Chore Boy in the supermarket. Take a small amount of the pad apart wrap it around a jag and go to work. Make sure the Chore Boy pad is real copper and not copper colored steel or you will damage your barrel.
The trick is not to get too much lead in your barrel in the first place. If you use the proper bullet at the correct velocities you won't lead your barrel. A lot of the time shooters will use a bullet which is too hard and cause leading than when they use a bullet which is too soft.
As for removing lead, I use Hoppe's #9 Copper Remover. I let it sit for about 20 minutes and it loosens us the lead enough to remove with a brass brush. If that's not enough try and find some brass Chore Boy in the supermarket. Take a small amount of the pad apart wrap it around a jag and go to work. Make sure the Chore Boy pad is real copper and not copper colored steel or you will damage your barrel.
The trick is not to get too much lead in your barrel in the first place. If you use the proper bullet at the correct velocities you won't lead your barrel. A lot of the time shooters will use a bullet which is too hard and cause leading than when they use a bullet which is too soft.
bandit31985
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I've been shooting black hills .44 special 210 gr. FPL out of my blackhawk .44 mag. probably should just shoot mags out if it seeing as how it shoots 6 inches high at 25 yards with the specials haha. Thanks for the help ArchAngel
tz77, I'd like to get a lead bullet trap made so that I could recycle the lead into more bullets... would you<or anyone else who has done it> explain some more about the design?
I thought I would use a sand base and then need to filter the lead out ... the rubber mat idea is interesting... do you just have it propped up on the front edge to deflect the bullets back under the steel?
I'd like a bullet trap that could be moved and used in different locations.... not sure how thick and what grade of steel would be best for such a design...
Don't want to hijack the thread... I'll be happy to cut and past this to a new thread if the OP would like me to.
I thought I would use a sand base and then need to filter the lead out ... the rubber mat idea is interesting... do you just have it propped up on the front edge to deflect the bullets back under the steel?
I'd like a bullet trap that could be moved and used in different locations.... not sure how thick and what grade of steel would be best for such a design...
Don't want to hijack the thread... I'll be happy to cut and past this to a new thread if the OP would like me to.
.38 Special
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My bores seem to go 5,000 to 15,000 rounds with jacketed rounds before accuracy starts to fall off.
I have never introduced any detectable change to my bores with cast bullets. I have a gun that has fired more than 50,000 .38 Special HBWC/2.7 Bullseye. It is still perfect, as far as I can tell.
I have never introduced any detectable change to my bores with cast bullets. I have a gun that has fired more than 50,000 .38 Special HBWC/2.7 Bullseye. It is still perfect, as far as I can tell.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Go to your local auto parts store and pick up a packet of assorted vaccuum line caps. Stand the gun straight up in the sink with the breech plugged with a vaccuum cap. Pour a 50-50 mixture of white vinegar and hydrogen peroxide in the barrel (be careful -- it can strip blueing.) A grey scum will form -- that's the lead. Pour it down the drain.
Then dry and lube as normal.
For normal shooters a barrel shooting FMJ will last a lifetime. It will last forever shooting lead.
Some competition folks who run 10's of thousands of rounds through their pistols wear out barrels, but the normal shooter won't.
Some competition folks who run 10's of thousands of rounds through their pistols wear out barrels, but the normal shooter won't.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Barrel wear is mostly due to gas temperature and pressure. Throats (in rifles and automatics) and forcing cones in revolvers are the first thing to go,
snooperman
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lead for me
Lead is cheaper especially if you reload. I shoot only lead. That said, jacketed bullets are much harder than lead as they are made of copper, which will cause much more barrel wear on the lands in the bore. Many tears ago a gentleman used a micrometer to measure the amount of wear, and in the older guns it was significant, but today with the modern steels it is not as much. Hence, you do not need to be so concerned with modern revolvers because the velocity is low. Now, in rifles, that is a different matter as the velocity is much greater and hence, even with modern steels the wear is significant, especially in the belted magnum rifles with velocity above 3300 ft per second. My 2 cents, snooperman
Lead is cheaper especially if you reload. I shoot only lead. That said, jacketed bullets are much harder than lead as they are made of copper, which will cause much more barrel wear on the lands in the bore. Many tears ago a gentleman used a micrometer to measure the amount of wear, and in the older guns it was significant, but today with the modern steels it is not as much. Hence, you do not need to be so concerned with modern revolvers because the velocity is low. Now, in rifles, that is a different matter as the velocity is much greater and hence, even with modern steels the wear is significant, especially in the belted magnum rifles with velocity above 3300 ft per second. My 2 cents, snooperman
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Lead bullets are easier on the gun in more ways than just bore wear. They're also easier on revolver topstraps due to less friction in the barrel...but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
Ever notice that worn bores in which jacketed bullets have been fired have the greatest amount of wear just forward of the chambers...while the rifling beyond that point is relatively good?
The reason that lead bullets don't wear bores nearly as much as jacketed bullets do isn't because of the difference in friction. It's because the ash residue that is left after firing...which is pretty abrasive...immediately imbeds into the lead bullet instead of being ground into the bore by the harder jacket. It does imbed into the jacket...but it occurs farther into the bore.
Cast lead bullets and handguns go together like pancakes and maple syrup.
Ever notice that worn bores in which jacketed bullets have been fired have the greatest amount of wear just forward of the chambers...while the rifling beyond that point is relatively good?
The reason that lead bullets don't wear bores nearly as much as jacketed bullets do isn't because of the difference in friction. It's because the ash residue that is left after firing...which is pretty abrasive...immediately imbeds into the lead bullet instead of being ground into the bore by the harder jacket. It does imbed into the jacket...but it occurs farther into the bore.
Cast lead bullets and handguns go together like pancakes and maple syrup.
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2512.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2513.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2514.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2515.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2516.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2517.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2518.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2519.jpg
that is my bullet box. the walls and floor is made of 1/8 inch steel the back out of 1/4 inch and at the bottom of the back, the steel is rolled 90 degrees. a piece of 1/4 inch stainless steel is welded on top of the weld between the back and the floor to keep the weld from being beat up when the bullet rolls down. i welded little hooks to hold the target onto, as well as handles which is balanced out. it has a lip at the front to keep stuff from pouring out. the bullets are basically destroyed on impact and the rubber mat keeps slower bullets from doing that. it also doesnt throw wood chips in there as well as doesnt exactly blow out. i use a little gardeners shovel thing to get the stuff out. its like dirt but made of lead, not quite small enough to be dust but i'm 100% positive i dont want to breathe near that stuff when getting it out or just after shooting. but it works perfect, i've shot it with .500 s&w and the back isn't bowing or anything. i wont put it through rifle use but I bet 1/4 inch stainless could take it just fine.
also shooting without a front will cause bullet fragments to fly back towards you. the bullet hits the back, rolls down, hits the corner, and comes back, hitting the cover.
also i have about 15k primers that i bought back when they were $22/1000
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2513.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2514.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2515.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2516.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2517.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2518.jpg
http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss119/zt77/IMG_2519.jpg
that is my bullet box. the walls and floor is made of 1/8 inch steel the back out of 1/4 inch and at the bottom of the back, the steel is rolled 90 degrees. a piece of 1/4 inch stainless steel is welded on top of the weld between the back and the floor to keep the weld from being beat up when the bullet rolls down. i welded little hooks to hold the target onto, as well as handles which is balanced out. it has a lip at the front to keep stuff from pouring out. the bullets are basically destroyed on impact and the rubber mat keeps slower bullets from doing that. it also doesnt throw wood chips in there as well as doesnt exactly blow out. i use a little gardeners shovel thing to get the stuff out. its like dirt but made of lead, not quite small enough to be dust but i'm 100% positive i dont want to breathe near that stuff when getting it out or just after shooting. but it works perfect, i've shot it with .500 s&w and the back isn't bowing or anything. i wont put it through rifle use but I bet 1/4 inch stainless could take it just fine.
also shooting without a front will cause bullet fragments to fly back towards you. the bullet hits the back, rolls down, hits the corner, and comes back, hitting the cover.
also i have about 15k primers that i bought back when they were $22/1000
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