Folders vs. Fixed for Purely Defensive Use

[RyanM]

Personally, I carry a small fixed-blade; an Emerson-Perrin LaGriffe. It's about all I can get away with other than a folder on a college campus, and I should be able to pass it off as a "craft knife" to most people. It actually would make a great utility/craft knife, if only the tip were pointier and the grind were on the other side. Plus it's got a macrame lanyard! Nothing could possibly be a weapon when macrame's attached to it!

I do have several larger folders lying around my dorm room, but personally, I believe folders have no place as a purely defensive weapon (ideally, anyway, but some states have "folder-only" laws).

Folders are much slower to get into action compared to a fixed-blade. They're a lot like "Israeli carry" for handguns; both render a weapon useless as anything but a bludgeon unless first "activated" in some manner after drawing, and I think either would require more manual dexterity than I could muster in a high-stress situation.

Either gives you a bit more safety if a holster/sheath is used, but a good carry rig reduces the risk of falling on your knife and being stabbed through the sheath, or bumping the trigger and shooting yourself in the leg.

Either gives you a ton more safety if carrying your piece in your pocket, or Mexican style (Mexican carry of a fixed-blade knife would _not_ be pretty! ), but I don't think either of those methods of carry is a very good choice for defensive use.

A fixed-blade, however, has the simplicity of a Glock-style DAO auto (with one in the pipe) or a revolver. It's ready to go as soon as you clear leather.

Anyone carry a fixed-blade for just those reasons (or would, if the law allowed)? Anyone think I'm full of it and shouldn't be speaking poorly of your "broken knives?" Speak up!

 

[Omni04]

what is mexican style? i've never heard of it before..

 

[RyanM]

Mexican style carry refers to just sticking the gun in your waistband, with no holster or anything.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I carried a great full-size Smith and Wesson SWAT knife for years, a folder (until my father lost it, which broker my heart). I in no way ever found it to be slower to action when needed quickly than my Stiff KISS from CKRT has been, or any other fixed blade. With a thumb stud any folder is lightning quick to open. The point is it is opened as its being brought towards what it is to cut/stab/whatever. That wouldnt change defensively.

Calling it slower than a fixed blade is like calling a revolver slower than an auto in a speed-shoot because the trigger pull is much longer. The trigger pull begins on the way up on such a weapon, much like opening a knife would occur.

This could all be because my folder was, by that time, second nature to me, like an extension of my hand.

All in all, I carry both a little 3"folder and a Stiff KISS. I keep the former for general duty and the latter for any serious situations.

On my wish list right now is the Gunsite model from Cold Steel with the half blade/half serrations. (I dont care about the logo, just the knife).

-Spooky

Edited to add: You know what, the more I think about it, the more I realize my smith was actually much easier to get to quickly than my fixed blades are. I know time to action would be longer trying to get any fixed blade from its tight kydex or thumstrapped holster than to simply slide my smith up out of pocket. So there.

 

[Skofnung]

I can't address the "fighting" aspect of the question, but...

I do prefer small fixed blades to folders.

I use knives all the time for woodwork, bushcraft, and general utility. I find that a sharp 3-4" fixed blade is one of the best tools around. If the law was on my side, I would carry a nice looking 3 or 4" Scandinavian type knife as an EDC.

The big problem with folders is simple: They are broken in the middle. Now I know that modern folders have strong locks (I carry an Endura as an EDC) but a knife with a hinge at the point of contact is weaker than a knife with a full tang, or even a rat-tail tang.

That, and for me, fixed blades "handle" better. That is, the grip of the knife is always more comfortable for me than a folder.

So that said, I would much prefer a small fixed blade to a folder for Anything including fighting, I guess.

Due to legal constraints, I carry two folders when I am in town.

 

[JShirley]

personally, I believe folders have no place as a purely defensive weapon

Hee. Heh-heh.

You're right, of course. The mission of the daily carry knife is as a tool. Knives should be well down on the list of items one would deliberately use for defensive
usage.
[sarcasm on]
By all means, carry a fixed blade for purely defensive use. Heck, go all the way,
and carry a large and menacing one, while you're at it- intimidation factor, don't ya know. Then, when potential trouble's brewing, you can wave the large,
intimidating knife in a highly visible fashion, and yell: I have this![/sarcasm off]

In all seriousness, I highly doubt you'll be able to pass this off as a "craft knife" to any guard or police officer who has eyes and at least two brain cells.

John, likes huge knives, but carries a good folder

 

[Mac Attack]

A fixed blade (FB) is the best alternative for a defensive knife. Depending on how you carry your knife FB's are much quicker to deploy and do not have the weak points of pivot pin and blade stop pin which a folder is plagued with. The major problem is that in most states concealed fix blade carry is illegal. Also, a FB is much more difficult to carry than a folder. I have tried static line IWB carry, static line in pocket carry, neck carry and shoulder holster carry and none was a comfortable as a folder.

Practice makes perfect

Folders can be deployed quickly if you practice enough. One knife brand in particular in many cases that is practically just as fast as a FB but give the comfort of a folder is any Emerson SpecWar knife with the wave feature. I own several production and custom Emerson's with the wave and with a little practice they can be deployed lickty split with effective results.

Bottom line is to carry what you want but practice what you carry.

Mac

 

[PaladinX13]

Has there ever been a documented case of a folder failing during a defense situation?

 

[Skofnung]

Has there ever been a documented case of a folder failing during a defense situation?

I've never read or heard of folder failing in a defensive situation, then again, I have never read or heard of a legitimate defensive use of a folder in a real life fight.

I have seen, with my own eyes, an old Buck lockback (I forget the model number, but it was the kind the good-ole-boys always had on them back in the mid 80's) close on a fellow's fingers while gutting a deer. It was his fault, but it happened.

 

[Omni04]

i have kind of a PoS folder my friend got me for christmas. The lock on it works, but the problem is you have to really apply pressure to the blade for it to actually lock.. It just gives the "illusion" of being locked. But im guessing high quality blades don't have this problem.

 

[RyanM]

Spooky, you must have a ton more manual dexterity than me, and probably much less sweaty palms. All I'm ever able to do with folders is drop them.

Skofnung, thanks for reminding me that I've always wanted to buy a puuko! Those scandanavian-type knives are amazing cutters, when they have the authentic, totally flat grind on 'em.

John, you're probably right, but if I'm convincing enough, I might be able to get the police to think that I'm dumb enough that I think it's a utility knife... which would mean I'm too dumb to own anything sharper than a pool noodle. Darn. Need to think of a better excuse. Or transfer to IUP. The only knife rule there is nothing over 12"!

Mac, in my case, practice makes holes-in-feet when it comes to one-handed folders; unless I "flick" them open, which is way too hard on the lock. Anything else I'm fine with, but those thumb studs are just too slippery for me. Never tried a knife with a thumb-hole, but I somehow doubt they'd work better.

Paladin X13, no, but I have experienced lock failures while just doing utility tasks. As a result, I now consider all folding knives to essentially be slip joints that are real smooth to open, and sometimes real stiff to close. In fact, my pure utility knife (or knives if you count the Leatherman Micra) is an unabashed slipjoint. None o' them fancy "lock" thingies to lull you into a false sense of security, so's they can snap closed on your fingers when it's least expected.

 

[wdlsguy]

Anything else I'm fine with, but those thumb studs are just too slippery for me. Never tried a knife with a thumb-hole, but I somehow doubt they'd work better.

You should try a Spyderco Endura if you get the chance.

 

[Boats]

The hole really changes the speed compared to studs on a folder. My Benchmade 806D2 Axis is the only folder I own that I totally trust. Anything that would break the pivot pin that it locks up on is going to be force enough to break the blade or my wrist, whichever goes first.

Liner locks and old school lockbacks are a different story in my opinion when compared to modern strong locks like featured on a Benchmade Axis, a Strider, or a Chris Reeves Sebenza. I could own any folder within reason and I chose the BM because the hole speeds things up dramatically without being gimmicky like assisted opening folders are.

 

[Mulliga]

Not to hijack the thread, but how do you deploy a neck knife like the Lagriffe quickly? Reach under your shirt and pull it out?

 

[Boats]

Silly, you wear a buttoned shirt or a v-necked tee and you grab the collar with both hands, and rip or pop the garment as you bare your chisled chest and six pack abs while menacingly throwing aside said shirt in contempt for your foe as you pull the blade. A roll of the head to audibly crack some neck vertebrae and a Bruce Lee style glare are also suggested when deploying the neck knife from deep concealment. Bon mots are optional.

That or when anticipating trouble you merely flip it to the outside of your shirt, or untuck your shirt as you thought and get ready to possibly pull the knife. I still prefer a folder as it is easier to deploy fast with practice and will easily do 98+% of what a comparably sized fixed blade can do.

 

[RyanM]

I actually carry my LaGriffe IWB, almost exactly where a cross-draw pistol holster would be. Tried strong side, but it constantly dug into my love handles. Not sure why cros-draw doesn't but it doesn't

And hm, sounds like I need to buy a new knife, with thumb-hole, at some point. I think I figured out what my problem with folders is, though. Been holding them wrong while opening them.

 

[JShirley]

Concealed Carry Magazine will have an article that addresses the folder vs. fixed question for daily carry, in
the February edition.

John

 

[cracked butt]

And hm, sounds like I need to buy a new knife, with thumb-hole, at some point. I think I figured out what my problem with folders is, though. Been holding them wrong while opening them.

Get a Spiderco. I have no problems opening one with winter gloves on- one handed.

 

[ruger357]

I usually will wear a small fixed blade in a neck sheath. I am partial to the Benchmade 210.

 

[Mulliga]

Well, after talking to the UPD, the only knives allowed on campus are "pocketknives" (i.e. folders). Looks like I'm going with the AFCK after all.

 

[JShirley]

I've carried both the Mini-AFCK and the Griptilian. Good knives.

John

 

[MrMurphy]

El Salvadoran soldier in Iraq who was in a bad spot (very low on ammo, several soldiers wounded, surrounded by bad guys) whipped out his folding knife (might have been a switchblade?) and killed three BGs with it, with no formal training.

 

[Joe Demko]

Bon mots are optional.

Non. Bons mots.

 

[Boats]

Yep. Whoops, dropped the 's' during typing.

 

[8830]

While in between cop jobs a couple of years ago I carried a Cold Steel Kobun IWB left side, blade forward under my t-shirt. It was fast to draw and easily concealed. I also carried a Spyderco Endura in my right back pocket as back up or primary depending on where the threat would come from. I was fast with it too but did prefer the Kobun for speed and less movement to get it into action.