Food for thought regarding your CCW choice

[CAS700850]

I had just finished qualifying with my Sig 239 when the instructor, who I respect, asked if he could see, then shoot, the Sig. No problmes. He shot it, brought it back, and commented that it was a nice little gun.

"Don't carry it, though." he said, surprising me. When I asked if something was wrong with the gun, he said no. he then went on to explain that all but one agency in the county we work in carries a Glock as a duty weapon, including bailiff's, probation, uniforms, and plainclothes. he highly recommended carrying either a Glock, or the still common J frame revolver, as most law enforcement would regognize these to be law enforcement guns. In his way of thinking, it could cause a responding officer to take a moment to identify you, and not just shoot you in the back.

As I thought about this advice, and the fact that the Glock is in about 70% plus of the LEO holsters in America, it made me wonder. SHould we take into consideration how others might view our CCW handgun? Should we carry a Glock because people, including LEO's, will assume that a Glock=LEO, which may help lessen the risk of a friendly fire situation? I recall reading Massad Ayoob years ago advocate carrying what local law enforcement does for that reason. Any thoughts on the validity of this logic?

 

[1911 guy]

Sheesh!

Let me get this straight. A cop who can tell what make your pistol is can't tell what is going down?

I can easily see confusion when an officer arrives. He has no idea who's who until someone identifies themselves and even then he's going to be rightfully suspicious. But to say that in the middle of all that he can tell what make/model you're carrying? Gimme a break. Most cops couldn't recognize their own pistol if you showed it to them. No offense to the gunnie cops here, but most cops aren't gunnies. Most are firearm ignorant.

 

[Mulliga]

Ridiculous, as 1911 guy said. There have been some recent cases of accidental police shootings of plainclothes cops, so using a Glock won't do anything to protect you. All guns look the same at night, anyway. In fact, I'm no expert, but I'd think the best thing to do after a self-defense shooting (once you have verified the threat is gone) would be to holster your gun.

 

[MM]

Good Foor!
SatCong

 

[Oldtimer]

HMM! I had to delve into my "bag of memories", having spent 31 years in law enforcement. While the GUN does, in fact, immediately attract the attention of police officers, there's many other facets that enter the total picture.

There was another post about the "sixth sense". Well, the average "street cop" tends to obtain a "street sense" after a few years. It consists of (A) the "look" of people that they see, (B) body language, and (C) the overall view of the people and the surroundings.

For example, I responded to a "robbery alarm" at a nearby liquor store. As I approached, a man was running from the store with a "snubbie" revolver in hand. Something was "wrong" with the picture, for the man didn't APPEAR to be a "bad guy", in my opinion! Still, I had to take cover and order him to drop the weapon. He did, and it turned out that he was the OWNER of the liquor store! (A "wino" had grabbed a bottle of wine and had run from the store, so it hadn't been a "robbery", just a simple theft, worth about $2.99). It was the APPEARANCE of that liquor store owner, plus his body language that seemed to off-set the probability of him being a "bad guy".

There have been numerous "suicide-by-cop" incidents and many of them have consisted of "replica" guns being held by the suicidal persons. Body language and verbage usually enters the picture....and, what can you do when a suicidal person is yelling, "Kill me!" while holding what appears to be a REAL gun?

A lot of press has been on the recent "Air Marshall" shooting of a deranged person yelling that he had a bomb. His verbage, plus his body language (reaching into a bag) caused his demise.

Sorry, but I can't correlate the GUN having to "look like" one that the local police agencies are carrying to YOUR personal safety! The "verbage" aspect, if you're involved in a shooting, will probably save you! Add to that, your "body language" AND your willingness to fully comply with the demands of an officer are necessary. Hey, start yelling something like, "I have a CCW permit, and it's in my pocket! If you can guard ME, as I put my gun down, don't take your eyes off of the bad guy! Just don't shoot ME, for I will comply with all of your demands!"

I've been retired for 4 years, but I know what I would say if I was involved in a shooting....and it would have NOTHING to do with the GUN that the on-duty officers see. I'd identify myself as a police officer, and utilize "command presence" in my voice.....but I'd also utilize non-threatening (to the officers) body language, and additional verbage, if necessary. Hopefully, those police officers will have that "street sense" instilled within them!

 

[Old Dog]

I dunno ... kinda makes sense to me ... 'cause we all know that NO criminals or bad people ever use Glocks, right?

I have a fundamental problem with a firearms instructor who would say something such as this guy did ... I don't think it's valid "logic," in fact, I don't think it's logic at all ...

1911guy, Mulliga, Oldtimer, all are right on target ... Not to mention -- plenty of cops nationwide carry SIGs off duty ...

 

[Azrael256]

Should we carry a Glock

Sounds to me like your instructor is trying to sell you a Glock.

 

[Arc-Lite]

hmmmm...fladed logic, should have asked this "instructor" why the scum bags can't carry a Glock...bad profiling, bad logic, silly statement.

 

[hso]

Silly, especially considering that departments purchase firearms based on cost considerations.

 

[Pilgrim]

I'm sure if you poll your local department(s) you will find an officer or two who doesn't know what he or she is carrying.

Pilgrim

 

[Preacherman]

I think this instructor's take is valid under certain very restrictive circumstances. For most of us, in most jurisdictions, I don't think the choice of handgun is an issue. However, in some jurisdictions where CCW permits are very difficult to obtain (e.g. New York City, Los Angeles, etc.), the cops there typically assume that anyone with a gun is either a cop, or a bad guy - nothing in between. If I were (legally) carrying a gun in one of those areas, I'd probably think it worthwhile to carry the same gun as that used by local law enforcement, as their recognition of it as "a cop's gun" might make the difference between their not shooting at once, or my becoming yet another dreary statistic.

Outside of such circumstances, I don't think I'll bother...

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Sure, a lot of cops carry Glocks. But so do a lot of gangsters.

Pick the gun that works best for you and take as much realistic training as you can.

 

[bill2]

Sure, a lot of cops carry Glocks. But so do a lot of gangsters.
___________

and so do some highly skilled DEA agents!

 

[markdaniel]

I would say carry the one you feel you can trust your life to. You dont want to have any doubts about your firearm if you need it in a life and death situation

 

[Jeff White]

Preacherman said;

However, in some jurisdictions where CCW permits are very difficult to obtain (e.g. New York City, Los Angeles, etc.), the cops there typically assume that anyone with a gun is either a cop, or a bad guy - nothing in between. If I were (legally) carrying a gun in one of those areas, I'd probably think it worthwhile to carry the same gun as that used by local law enforcement, as their recognition of it as "a cop's gun" might make the difference between their not shooting at once, or my becoming yet another dreary statistic.

I work in Illinois where there is no CCW. I would never assume that someone who had a handgun was a brother officer just by the type of gun he had. While it's true that you'll find Glocks in the holster of most of the officers working around here, while they are on duty, the number of different off duty weapons carried is huge. I'd say that you're just as likely to find an off duty officer carrying any popular CCW weapon as you are to find him carrying a Glock. I carry a Kimber Warrior on duty and a Glock 36 off duty (only until my Colt Officers ACP comes back from the smith). Many officers around here carry Kel-Tecs and other small autos off duty.

There are many other factors that go into identifying someone who is armed with a handgun as a threat. I don't know any officer around here who would automatically assume someone displaying a handgun was an officer with another agency because it was a Glock.

Jeff

 

[rock jock]

Heck, the VPC says Glocks are the weapon of choice for gangstas.

 

[Jeff Timm]

In the "good old days" in some jurisdictions the Police would only allow permits for certain guns. Quite often a 2" .38 Special, your choice of Colt or S&W. Essentially, the same as the Police were using as a backup gun.

There might be some legal advantage to using the same weapon as the local police and firing the same qualification course.

Shyster scumbag, "Do you feel you were qualified to handle a GUN!"

"Sir, I was trained by a Police instructor in the use of the same gun the Police use, only a smaller model, I took the same qualification test and scored above average."

Geoff
Who notes the local police generally carry Glocks of various vintages.

 

[Zundfolge]

I've heard instructor types say something similar ... that carry with a good holster means you're a "good guy".


Bad guys mexican carry, good guys have leather or Kydex. (or so the saying goes)



I figure any cop who shows up on a scene where he has to have his weapon drawn is going to tell anyone who's not in uniform or not personally known to him to drop their gun and get on the effing ground (to which the only good response is "Yes Sir" as you're setting your gun down and laying down).

 

[Lupinus]

Maybe he owns stock with Glock

I still have some time before CCW and am debating choices, but personally while Glock makes great firearms, I just personally don't prefer them. Near the top of my list right now is a Springfield XD in .40 S&W, but that is far from solid right now.

 

[Jeff White]

Here is an instance where on duty officers from the same department killed an off duty officer in a mistaken identity shooting. In this instance it was failure to follow the commands of the on duty officers that got the off duty officer killed. I don't think it mattered to the responding officers what kind of gun he had.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OFFICER_KILLED_LAWSUIT?SITE=MOSTP&SECTION=US

Dec 9, 3:10 PM EST

Suit over R.I. police shooting rejected

By RAY HENRY
Associated Press Writer

PROVIDENCE, R.I. (AP) -- A federal jury Friday rejected a $20 million civil rights lawsuit against the Police Department over the fatal shooting of a black officer by two white colleagues who mistook him for a suspect.

Sgt. Cornel Young Jr., 29, was off duty and in plain clothes in 2000 when he was killed outside a diner as ran to respond to a fight.

The shooting sparked charges of racism on the police force and led the department to drop a requirement that officers carry their guns while off-duty.

In her lawsuit, Young's mother, Leisa Young, claimed the department had not properly trained one of the officers to recognize off-duty or plainclothes officers. The officer, Michael Solitro, had been on the force for eight days.
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The jury, which began deliberating Wednesday after a monthlong trial, decided that the department did not violate Young's rights.

Solitro and his partner, Carlos Saraiva, were previously cleared of any criminal wrongdoing by a state grand jury and federal prosecutors.

Leisa Young left the courtroom without comment after the verdict, then cried quietly on the courthouse steps before getting into a car and leaving with her lawyers.

Her attorney, Barry Scheck, called the ruling disappointing and said he will appeal, adding, "The struggle continues."
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"All you can do is speak truth to power," he said.

City Solicitor Joseph Fernandez called Young's death a "painful loss for the city."

"We're neither unhappy or happy," he said. "The main thing today is to take time to remember the life of Cornel Young Jr., his service to his city, his service to his family and for his community."

Young's father, police Maj. Cornel Young, who did not join his ex-wife's lawsuit but said he supported it, was the highest-ranking black officer in Providence when his son was killed. He testified that the risk of misidentification was particularly great for minority officers.

Young Jr. was eating inside the restaurant when a fight broke out between two women and spilled outside. A friend of one of the women pulled a gun and got into a car, and Young drew his gun and ran outside. Solitro and his partner arrived and opened fire, thinking Young was a suspect.

The two officers testified that Young never identified himself as a police officer and that he had pointed his gun in their direction and ignored repeated commands to drop his weapon.

Scheck said Young had his gun trained on a bystander when the two officers shouted at him. He said Young was shot when he turned toward the officers.

Though both officers shot Young, the trial focused exclusively on whether the police department improperly trained Solitro, thereby violating Young's civil rights.

At the time of the shooting, Providence police were required to carry their guns off-duty and intervene when they saw an immediate threat to life or property. Carrying a gun is now optional for off-duty officers, and they are encouraged instead to try to be good witnesses if they see a crime.

You need to either have your gun holstered when the responding officers arrive, or if that isn't possible, expect to be treated like a criminal and proned out and disarmed. Follow every instruction from the responding officers as if your life depended on it.

I think ego and pride is the cause of many of these tragic situations. A badge and department ID or CCW permit does not place you in a aura that glows and tells everyone else you're one of the good guys at a glance. Swallow your pride and follow the instructions of the responding officers. They can slap you on the back and tell what a good job you did after it's determined that you aren't a threat.

Jeff

 

[Mannlicher]

your instructor is an opinionated boob. Carry what you want.

 

[GoBrush]

:banghead: This drives me nuts
1st of all a CCW is just that or should be any way CONCEALED
2nd of all any time you pull it all the same rules apply you must be Justified in doing so even if you do carry a GLOCK.
3rd Go find another instructor any one giving that kind of advise cannot be trusted.

Finally I was in Law Enforcement back in the day that many departments still let us carry Colts cocked and locked. I bought a Glock and just did not like the feal. Dont get me wrong the Glock is a fine gun and it does say something that so many agencies use them.

My Brother is still in Law Enforcement had taught training for his department and the academy for years and loves his Glock's and for that matter the 9mm. I believe the reason he and many others LOVE Glock is because that is what they have, practice with, are most familiar with.

FYI many federal, state, city, military agencies carry Sigs as well.

I will continue to carry my 239's THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

The main thing here is to practice with whatever you have I shoot about 300 rounds per month minimum!

If you want a Glock get one they are proven, reliable, durable and fine weapons and if you practice with it long enough I am sure you will love it as much as all the Glock lovers out there. However changing to a Glock for the reasons your instructor gave would be DUMB

 

[armoredman]

Give up my CZ for a GROCK?!? Hardly. This is AZ, a wild variety of firearms are carried by a broad spectrum of good people, both open and concealed. Many PDs do use the drastic plastic, including my own, but it doesn't specifiy I have to off duty....

 

[WvaBill]

Since most cruisers around here have an M-16-like carbine in the trunk, I should have an AR?

 

[WT]

I keep hearing that Glock has 70% of the police market. Yet, I rarely see a Glock in a police holster. Who provides that statistic? Why, Gaston Glock, of course!

Marketing ..............