? for all you bird hunters out there...

[john l]

Guys,
I know this guy who hunts ducks and he says that he doesn't like to shoot clay games because trap and skeet have the clay birds flying away from you- so shooting at clay birds don't help you become a better bird hunter.

I think that this is counterintuitive.
It seems like any practice shooting clay birds will help you shoot a real bird when the time comes.

Since I don't hunt birds, (nothing against it, perhaps I will in the future) will you bird hunters out there sound off on this?

Thanks,
john l.

 

[TrapperReady]

Trap has the birds flying away from you at different angles. Skeet has them going away, and coming towards you, but mostly crossers. Sporting clays has as much variety as you can imagine.

There are two main criticisms of clay targets. The first thing is that they are constantly slowing down, unlike birds which are often speeding up to escape. Additionally, clay targets follow a very straight, defined path. Birds, especially ones like doves, will juke and dive all over the place.

However, I will tell you this. Clay target shooting WILL make you a better wingshot. If I had to bet my own money on someone who only shoots at birds in the fall, or someone who shoots targets all year round and also hunts... I'm going for the guy who breaks a bunch of the little orange things.

 

[buzz meeks]

I'm an avid upland hunter and a really casual clays shooter. I have to agree with the last poster. Any practice on any type of clays course is valuable. I have spent the last two years working my dog in the off season and I have had no time for shotgun practice. My field shooting, no surprise, has been really poor.

 

[sm]

I was a "pretty good" bird hunter - or so I thought.

I took up skeet to become a better one. I went from using "boxes" of shells to fill my 15 bird dove limit to 12 shotgun shells to fill that 15 bird limit. I went from a Box of shells to get my 6 Ducks to 5 shells to fell 6 Greenheads.

I then became involved with 5 stand ,SC and some other exotic games. So then the fun was to fell that duck and have it fall before it reached "that" tree, set of dekes, or other hunters.

BA/UU/ R is NOT Task limited. Transitions to other Tasks very well.

 

[HSMITH]

I fully agree with Trapper and Steve.

I hunt hard these days and used to shoot targets like an addict. I took up target shooting because I was missing birds and it helped immensely. Skeet makes for solid duck shooters, I promise. Sporting Clays makes for good all around field gunners.

 

[Texian Pistolero]

it's AMAZING how much, under pressure, your "game" can fall apart.

I know I am currently weak in the strictly inbound/ outbound, rising/falling shot categories (of hunting the mourning dove).

I have no doubt that a few good rounds of sporting clays would close the loop on this for me.

But I am too lazy/superstitious to "go there".

Go figure.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Use begets expertise, and swinging on little clay frisbees 4" across helps center birds, oft 4" across the vitals, in the pattern for quick and humane kills. The standard clay target of 4 1/4" was made that size for a reason.

Station 4 shots at skeet(which I do poorly at) duplicate teal buzzing the dekes. I do poorly there also.

Low wormburner going away shots at wobble trap duplicate quail singles flushing.

Trap shots duplicate ringneck flushes, albeit they move much faster than Technicolor roosters do in the real world.

And the nigh infinite variety of shots at sporting clays mimics the nigh infinite variety of shots in the field. I must admit I've yet to see a real teal blast up, though.

John, a lot of hunters speak badly of the clay games. I'd wager the usual flagon of mead that in each case, they tried trap, skeet etc, and didn't like their scores. Too many blows to the ego can energize a Sour Grapes Attitude.

Many decent game shots do less than well in their initial outings. All too often they find themselves shooting behind the clays because they're used to focussing on the head, eye or wings. Minus those things on clays, they shoot for the back end.

Gil and Vicki Ash, in their book, cite this very thing. The eye is drawn to the fastest thing in view, usually the wings. With no wings,etc, on the clay, the eye is drawn back to the gun, and we ALL know what happens when we look at the gun intead of the bird.

sm's words should be on a Tablet of Stone in The Temple of The Shotgun Gods.....

"BA/UU/R is not task limited"....

 

[buzz meeks]

Okay, I give. What does BA/UU/R stand for?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Buy Ammo, Use Up, Repeat. It's a local Mantra for attaining Shotgun proficiency.

You even see it on T shirts now....

 

[jerryd]

Try some ZZ trap to try your expertise and patience!

 

[TrapperReady]

Dave - I've not seen a teal go straight up like that, but I've shot several pheasants which have done so. Sometimes, if you've been pushing them through cover towards a tall treeline, when they take to the air they'll head straight up until they clear the trees.

The shot I don't use from sporting clays is the incoming target that passes directly overhead. In the game, you take it before it gets to you. In the field, I'll turn and let it pass, taking it going away. That way you don't shoot up the edible meat, and also remove the risk of swinging across another hunter.

 

[huntsman]

if you want to shoot clays for bird hunting pratice shoot low gun (don't pre mount your gun).Field shooting you must get your mount correct to shoot accurately so practice what is important the mount swing and shot.

 

[Dave McCracken]

TR, I've had ringnecks "Tower" like that, but generally it's an easy shot. Woodcock do also, but there the challenge is getting the shot. Woodcock cover runs thick.

I'd take that shot going away also, but I believe the idea is to duplicate English style drive shooting which is all incoming.

Huntsman, I do about 90% low gun these days for that reason.

 

[sm]

Low gun .

I learned Low gun, then later was taught ( okay fussed at ) to be familar with pre-mount. Once I did that for a bit to be familar...I went to low gun for everything.

Trapper-
The bird coming at me to pass overhead - Skeet Station 8. I made myself practice that station a LOT, too many folks I had seen run straight until 8 and then blow it. Especially L8.

I'm the idiot that had to see how far toward the trap house I could walk toward and still hit it. I also like to shoot doubles from Station 8 , from both H and L . Let that dove fly at me - he is mine, and if his cousin thinks he can sneak up from behind and hit the afterbuners to get past me...heh heh heh.

Rising teal...too much fun to have a puller and one other shooter do a flurry at 5 stand. Get 4 shooters and 2 rising teals going and you have too much fun. For Field practice we stepped in front of cage ( permission of course) . Then we shut off all other traps for safety snagged some folks to SO and with 2 rising teals we walked toward them, not calling for birds, they just "appeared". SO and Puller turned on the one trap that had an screaming incomer...and didn't tell me. 3 other folks knew, great field practice. Oh I hit it...by this time I was not thnking - I was just "shooting the darn thing".

Took out a dragon-fly or two as well...can we say "birdy"?

Yes - Clay games are great for field applications and for HD. L7 was my Tueller Drill if you will for Shotguns.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Anything that gets you trigger time on moving targets with a scattergun will help. We use a cheap spring thrower, no formal trap/skeet/clays around here, it helps. We use moving targets for HD training too, the old Garboon idea. What's a Garboon? Garbage bag plus balloon equals garboon.

Drape a big garbage bag over a cardboard box with a hole in the top, suspend the contraption on an inflated toy balloon inside the box with string/wire thru hole, hang that from an overhead suspension wire (we use 25' of coated clothesline wire with one end anchored on the berm, the other supported by a 10' piece of PVC pipe guyed upright) so the target is chest high, drag toward shooter (who is in front of operator) with a string- cheap-o charging target, will initially scare the willies out of people used to shooting stationary paper. Range safety is of course imperative, experienced and safety conscious shooters only should try this. Target will drop when balloon pops, can vary location of balloon in the box/size of balloon by inflation to make it harder to hit and thus require multiple shots. Drag the target at walking or running speeds, shooter has to shoot till it drops, reload if necessary. My wife absolutely loves training on this, especially with her pistol, she calls it Casper the Unfriendly Ghost.

lpl/nc

 

[sm]

rut roh

Lee done let the 'bad guy out of the bag".

I'm familar with this set up as well.

Scares folks is right. Great training tool. Blows the excuse " can't afford to take any training". Improvise, Adapt and Overcome.

Clothesline : that contraption we used to dry clothes before dryers.

same contraption that will flatten you going after a football to catch , or en route to tackle someone. Hence the name : He "clotheslined" that fella.. in Football Jargon...

Helps to be old I guess..

 

[TrapperReady]

I've had ringnecks "Tower" like that, but generally it's an easy shot.

Dave - It all depends on how well you've been able to keep up with the dog.

 

[HSMITH]

I shoot just about everything low gun too. Was surprising to me that my trap scores are about the same shooting low gun as they are pre-mounted gun. I thought I would drop a couple more birds....

Skeet and sporting I shoot low gun as I miss more with a pre-mounted gun.

Steve, Low 8 about halfway to the house gets a bit quick doesn't it? Gets pieces of the clay all over you too when done right. Another one I like is to shoot doubles skeet but shoot the shots backward, shoot the incoming target first and the outgoing target second. You can get some longer shots in and much different leads needed.

 

[TrapperReady]

The only thing I typically shoot pre-mounted is trap. Once in a great while, I may shoot a particular sporting clays presentation that way, but it's very rare.

Last week I shot a course which had a devious little target. It was a long incomer, off to the right, which passed between several sections of trees. The first "window" it reached was a long ways out. The second one would have been preferable, but it was very narrow. The final opening was almost directly across from the shooting box, maybe 20 yard away... and by then the target was dropping fast. My first shot was the long one, and I got a hit, but it was really chippy. The next bird I let get to the last window. However, I'd been tracking it for so long, and it was travelling so slowly that when I did shoot, I wasn't swinging the gun anymore. Miss. So, I decided to wait. I called for the bird, and then just kept the gun pointed at the sky until it cleared the last tree. I then swung the gun up and when it hit my shoulder, I pulled the trigger. Dust. Same with the second in the pair. Same with the next pair.

The guy I was shooting with is new to clay busting, and his background is mostly deer hunting. I watched him miss the first pair, after following the birds like I had on my miss. I told him to wait until the bird cleared the last tree, THEN start his swing. He couldn't do it. A little before the clay got to the tree, he raised his gun and carefully followed it. He stopped his swing, shot, and missed behind and above. This time, I explained it again and told him to ignore the bird until he could see it dropping past the tree. He did, and it shattered. He then went on to do the same thing with the next pair.

It seems that most of the misses I see, especially with newer shooters, comes from two areas. The first is not being on the correct line, and the second is stopping their swing. Some coaching and practice will get rid of the first problem, and a low gun will take care of a lot of the second.

BTW, a great hunting season prep is to shoot sporting clays in the following manner:

1) Low gun, safety ON.
2) The trapper decides when to throw the clays, not the shooter.
3) If the station allows for it, the trapper decides whether to throw a true pair or a report pair.

 

[Dave McCracken]

TR, Amen. Pop had one dog he called his 3 State Dog, said he hunted with her in 3 states on the same day. He got her better by keeping her with him all the time. After a few weeks of seldom being out of his sight, she stayed closer than the horizon...

One little gripe I have about SC courses lately. The increase in the number of good SC shooters has caused course designers and target setters to increase the difficulty of most shots. Some also use presentations that are more vision tests than tests of our shooting. PGC does have some posts where one can alter the degree of difficulty, but I'm sure new shooters often get discouraged. And this includes hunters who do well in the field but cannot adjust easily to targets with no wings that slow as they fly, etc.

 

[TrapperReady]

My favorite automated course is set up so that it typically has a minimum of three different shooting stations for each target. The easiest ones are closer to the thrower, and are often right next to it. The others are stationed further away or at a significant angle. The most difficult may have a harder angle, and use the natural terrain and foliage to offer shorter windows.

The nice thing about this setup is that you can have a beginner shoot the eaiser station, and a more advanced shooter use one of the others... and hardly skip a beat.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Sounds like a good setup.More ranges should do likewise.....

 

[mistercindy]

I've never felt that shoting clay pigeons was all that helpful. Personally, I can't hit the broadside of a barn with clay pigeons, but I hit my birds. I think its a matter of incentive. But, IMHO, excellent clay pigeon shooting does not necessarily begat excellent bird shooting.

 

[wanderinwalker]

After looking at my shots fired to birds-bagged this past season, I say the more practice the better! I've also noticed since I switched to shooting a 12ga instead of a 20, my clay-target hit rate hasn't improved but my follow through has tremendously (must be the heavier gun). I have yet to shoot a skeet or trap event; all of my practice comes from a hand-trap, which with my brother throwing makes for some interesting shots and angles...

I think it is like in rifle and handgun shooting. I've seen many "crack shots" (deer hunt-only types) struggle to break Expert on a Highpower course, but by the same token those who excel with the unforgiving dimension of fixed-circles adapt well to hitting non-circle targets. Either way I need far more scattergun practice to get my hit-ratio up to where it should be.