22/22mag
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Have read that the .38 super has to much penetration for self defence is this the case, is .40 better?Thanks
For self defence anything wrong with a .38 super
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Preacherman
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With hardball, sure, .38 Super is likely to overpenetrate - but so is .40 S&W! With a decent hollowpoint load, the .38 Super should be a "super" SD round indeed... approaching .357 Magnum or 357 SIG in ballistics (a bit slower than either in similar bullet weights, but significantly faster than 9mm. Parabellum).
Nightcrawler
Member
Ben Shepherd
Member
As others have stated, with the right bullet, it's good.
There is one drawback: LOUD!!! But if that isn't a concern for you, it's a good choice.
There is one drawback: LOUD!!! But if that isn't a concern for you, it's a good choice.
Standing Wolf
Member in memoriam
Load your own.
Josey
member
During the pre-WWII period Texas Rangers were often found to carry a 45 LC Colt SAA and a Colt 1911 in 38 Super. Many of those arms are still carried today. If it isn't broke.....
Jim March
Member
What they said. Ain't a dang thing wrong with the caliber, just that fodder is scarce and there's fewer good defense loads made. But they DO exist.
Why would a .38 Super have too much penetration for self-defense? It has the diameter of a .357 Magnum, as well as the weight for a medium load for the same. Velocity is roughly equal (or a bit less) depending on manufacturer. So logically, the .357 Magnum would be a worse load, and I've never seen or heard that before.
Jim March
Member
The "penetration problem" happened back when it was first popular (pre-WW2) and hardball was all there was. 38Super in hardball penetrates deeper than 45ACP hardball. Early 357 flatnose loads had the same issues and then some.
With modern JHPs, it's a non-issue in 357 OR 38Super.
With modern JHPs, it's a non-issue in 357 OR 38Super.
A recent session at the range with my Chrony-graph showed sorta disappointing velocities from all the "name brand" ball, and jhp ammo I tried. 130gr. fmj, for example, never got over 1100 fps--that's no better than 9mm para. The 115gr. PMC and Win. hollowpoints were just at best 1150 fps., IIRC. Again, good ol' 9mil matches or exceeds this. Only thing that did well was the small amount of Cor-Bon I tried. Pretty much did as described on the box, velocity wise. BTW, all testing was done with a 5" Gov't model under decent weather conditions. Reckon that most of the ammo makers are still afraid somebody's gonna run +P Super thru their grandpa's old .38 acp autoloader...so they keep things to the mild side. Well, all's not lost. Got me another barrel that chambers 9x23 ammo--now we're cookin' wit gas!
124 gr. SP or 125 gr Silvertips moving 1500 fps...ah, that's better! And yeah, I do spring the gun a little heavier for that stuff, and do my practice with a shock buff in place.
124 gr. SP or 125 gr Silvertips moving 1500 fps...ah, that's better! And yeah, I do spring the gun a little heavier for that stuff, and do my practice with a shock buff in place.I think this overpenetration thing is stressed too much, unless one is a guard in a bank or department store.
The main reason that the .38 Super was initially popular is that it WOULD penetrate well...when shooting at cars or at heavily-clad felons. FMJ ammo, of course. Velocity was higher then.
A high school chum showed me his dad's Colt .38 Super, bought for protection when walking in bear country. He WANTED penetration on a bear!
Elmer Keith wrote of the Super and the 9mm that he had a lot of respect for their penetration on bear, but that they didn't always kill quickly. (A vital zone must be struck, normally the brain or the spinal cord.) He preferred his powerful revolver handloads, which hit even harder.
Lone Star
P.S. One reason why Texas Rangers liked the Super is that they shot at cars with it! That was a big deal in the 1930's, and caused S&W to bring out their .38/44 revolver.
The main reason that the .38 Super was initially popular is that it WOULD penetrate well...when shooting at cars or at heavily-clad felons. FMJ ammo, of course. Velocity was higher then.
A high school chum showed me his dad's Colt .38 Super, bought for protection when walking in bear country. He WANTED penetration on a bear!
Elmer Keith wrote of the Super and the 9mm that he had a lot of respect for their penetration on bear, but that they didn't always kill quickly. (A vital zone must be struck, normally the brain or the spinal cord.) He preferred his powerful revolver handloads, which hit even harder.
Lone Star
P.S. One reason why Texas Rangers liked the Super is that they shot at cars with it! That was a big deal in the 1930's, and caused S&W to bring out their .38/44 revolver.
auldpharght
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I have a rare AMT Backup in .38-Super and it's a great carry.
Over-penetration is the least of my worries with it.
38-Super is powerful, smooth and ultimately controllable ~ three things that you look for in a carry. The AMT being small is an added bonus.
And, yes, the little AMT is dependable. 500+ rounds and zero malfunctions.
But, as the song says, "different strokes for different folks," but I think the .38-Super caliber is a keeper.
KahrPacker
Over-penetration is the least of my worries with it.
38-Super is powerful, smooth and ultimately controllable ~ three things that you look for in a carry. The AMT being small is an added bonus.
And, yes, the little AMT is dependable. 500+ rounds and zero malfunctions.
But, as the song says, "different strokes for different folks," but I think the .38-Super caliber is a keeper.
KahrPacker
Attachments
38 Supers tend to be expensive, in a 1911 pattern.
Now on the hand you can get a 10 shot 38 Super Witness (CZ clone) for around $350-400.
Now on the hand you can get a 10 shot 38 Super Witness (CZ clone) for around $350-400.
Tamara
Senior Member
'Bout one day every other week, I tote my Colt in .38 Super, using GA Arms 147gr @ 1200fps JHP's. They run good in the gun, expand nicely when shot into stuff, and are quite controllable and accurate. What's not to like?
cxm
Member
.38 Super
Some years ago the .38 Super was a potient round...but apparently the velocity has been reduced a good bit by the makers.
These days, it is not much more than a hot 9mm with a slightly heavier bullet. If you hand load the performance can be improved.
HOWEVER... if you have a 38 Super, you can easily rebarrel it for 9x23... which is a smoking round... Factory 125gr HPs around 1500fps, and I have loaded 125 gr bullets in the 1,800 fps range with no pressure signs.... It is a very pwoerful round.
FWIW
Chuck
Some years ago the .38 Super was a potient round...but apparently the velocity has been reduced a good bit by the makers.
These days, it is not much more than a hot 9mm with a slightly heavier bullet. If you hand load the performance can be improved.
HOWEVER... if you have a 38 Super, you can easily rebarrel it for 9x23... which is a smoking round... Factory 125gr HPs around 1500fps, and I have loaded 125 gr bullets in the 1,800 fps range with no pressure signs.... It is a very pwoerful round.
FWIW
Chuck
Stephen A. Camp
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Hello. I like the cartridge. If interested, here's some data I found when doing some tests on .38 Super:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm
Best.
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm
Best.
Tamara, could you give me an address, website thingy, or old fashioned phone number for GA Arms please? My sometimes sharp memory says they advertise in Gun List sometimes, but can't find 'em in the only issue I've got on hand at the moment...Thanx in advance for your help.
Tamara
Senior Member
cratz2
Member
I like the 38 Super... and would love to have a 9x23 but that hasn't come to pass just yet. For me, it comes down to the platform making sense. In a 1911, I'd just rather have a 38 Super or 9x23 than a 9mm. In something like the Witness, I think I'd rather have 9mm because of the cheaper practice ammo while still having access to stuff like +P Gold Dots and +P+ Rangers. In modern arms like Glocks, SIGs and H&Ks, I'd rather have a 9mm than a 357 SIG because the 9mms hold more rounds and aren't much hotter than the best 9mms.
Regarding penetration vs expansion vs velocity... the hotter 124-127 Gr 9mm compared to 130 Gr 38 Super compared to 125 Gr 357 SIG from comparable barrels are going to yield comparable results... It isn't crazy science fiction or anything like that... Similar 125-ish grain bullets at 1100 FPS are going to penetrate close to the same depth whether the slide reads '38 Super', '9mm' or '357 SIG'.
The Georgia Arms is the way I'd go myself... Decent cost and consistant. Though I've done no chrono work, the Winchester Silvertips feel much less hot than the Georgia Arms or CorBon.
Overall... I like the 38 Super a lot. But if you really want to see where the idea can go, I'd plan on getting a supported 9x23 barrel at some point.
Regarding penetration vs expansion vs velocity... the hotter 124-127 Gr 9mm compared to 130 Gr 38 Super compared to 125 Gr 357 SIG from comparable barrels are going to yield comparable results... It isn't crazy science fiction or anything like that... Similar 125-ish grain bullets at 1100 FPS are going to penetrate close to the same depth whether the slide reads '38 Super', '9mm' or '357 SIG'.
The Georgia Arms is the way I'd go myself... Decent cost and consistant. Though I've done no chrono work, the Winchester Silvertips feel much less hot than the Georgia Arms or CorBon.
Overall... I like the 38 Super a lot. But if you really want to see where the idea can go, I'd plan on getting a supported 9x23 barrel at some point.
Stealthfixr
Member
Has anyone used the 38 Super for an all-around gun?
It seems as though the 38 Super would be a great complimentary add-on cartridge to anyone who already reloads 9mm (both small primer, same/similar bullets). I am shooting a 9mm in IPSC Production, and I am considering the 38 Super for my first 1911 purchase. This way I would not have to monkey with my primer assembly in my reloading press, and could use the same bullets while still having a 1911 that I could use in Limited-10 and such. Any fault to this idea? Why should I make the jump to 45ACP instead?
And, I've read about the accuracy issues with the 38 Super long ago, supposedly now solved. However, I still read reports that the 38 Super is still backseat to the 9mm & 45ACP in accuracy (like in the back of the "Book of the 1911" recently out). Is this true, or just an old perception that will not die? Is the 38 Super as accurate as the best out there (I would assume so, or all these competition guns would not come in it). Thanks!
It seems as though the 38 Super would be a great complimentary add-on cartridge to anyone who already reloads 9mm (both small primer, same/similar bullets). I am shooting a 9mm in IPSC Production, and I am considering the 38 Super for my first 1911 purchase. This way I would not have to monkey with my primer assembly in my reloading press, and could use the same bullets while still having a 1911 that I could use in Limited-10 and such. Any fault to this idea? Why should I make the jump to 45ACP instead?
And, I've read about the accuracy issues with the 38 Super long ago, supposedly now solved. However, I still read reports that the 38 Super is still backseat to the 9mm & 45ACP in accuracy (like in the back of the "Book of the 1911" recently out). Is this true, or just an old perception that will not die? Is the 38 Super as accurate as the best out there (I would assume so, or all these competition guns would not come in it). Thanks!
cratz2
Member
Well, I'm not good enough shooter and I haven't shot enough similar guns in 38 Super vs 45 to say if one is still inheirantly more accurate than the other. I can't consistantly hold 2" groups at 25 yards in any unsupported hold so, most properly fitted semi customs (Rock Rivers, Baers) are more accurate than I am.
In Bullseye, with the 45 (or any larger caliber) with certain placements, you are slightly more likely to cut into the next ring so indentical shooters with indentically accurate guns and indentically accurate loads will eventually have a higher score with a 45 than with a 38 Super but with all being identical and standard group measuring, they should still be the same. But in most competitions, you want every advantage you can get.
Of course, in some compeitions, faster shooting is more desirable and most have found that the 38 Super or very light 9x23s result in faster times while staying on target than 45s.
Having said both of those things, a 1911 in either is far better than no 1911. If you want it primarily for gaming, I might suggest you look closely at the 38 Super. If you want it for a carry piece that you will also use in competition, I'd still lean towards the 45. Either way, since you reload, the costs will be kept down... It will still be cheaper to reload for the 38 Super than the 45ACP.
In Bullseye, with the 45 (or any larger caliber) with certain placements, you are slightly more likely to cut into the next ring so indentical shooters with indentically accurate guns and indentically accurate loads will eventually have a higher score with a 45 than with a 38 Super but with all being identical and standard group measuring, they should still be the same. But in most competitions, you want every advantage you can get.
Of course, in some compeitions, faster shooting is more desirable and most have found that the 38 Super or very light 9x23s result in faster times while staying on target than 45s.
Having said both of those things, a 1911 in either is far better than no 1911. If you want it primarily for gaming, I might suggest you look closely at the 38 Super. If you want it for a carry piece that you will also use in competition, I'd still lean towards the 45. Either way, since you reload, the costs will be kept down... It will still be cheaper to reload for the 38 Super than the 45ACP.
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