.38 super for concealed carry?
- Thread starter Mak92fs
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Just the other day (Monday 4/6) I bought a NIB AMT Backup in .38 Super. The same day I found 5 old 50rd boxes of Winchester Silvertips (white box w/red X) in a local shop for $24.95 each and I ordered 7 50rd boxes of Aguila FMJ from ammunitiontogo.com for $13.95 each plus shipping. Probably more than I'll ever shoot through the gun but I wanted to let you guys know that some stuff is still out there if you look. ammunitiontogo.com also has 115gr CorBon HP's for $20.95/20 and Fiocchi FMJ for $17.49/50. I'm going to order a few more boxes of Aguila right now before you guys get it all!
Hey, I like the .38 Super and 9x23mm, but it's not that hard to find a 155-grain .40 JHP @ 1275 fps. That does beat 124 @ 1350 fps.
Now, if you talk 9x23mm and .40, the 9x23 has a slight advantage.
J
Now, if you talk 9x23mm and .40, the 9x23 has a slight advantage.
J
tipoc
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From 1929 till the development of the 10mm the Super was considered by many to be the most powerful round that could be fired out of a semi. It's velocity and ft. pds. of energy produced at the muzzle were the primary factors which folks looked at when figuring it as more powerful than the .45 acp. Not to mention more powerful than the 9mm.
For the last 25 or so years there have been 3 rounds which have received unprecedented attention from ammo manufacturers and have improved their ballistic performance greatly. These are the 9mm, the 40S&W and the .45 acp. The .38 Super has not received as much attention, unfortunately.
The 9mm is a much better round than it was 20 years ago. But even in it's best loadings, where it is operating at it's peak pressures, the Super can still beat it by 100 fps or so and can do this without reaching peak pressures. For some shooters though the extra punch may not be worth it.
The 9x23 uses a case which has the same external dimensions as the Super. It can operate at higher pressures than the Super though because internally the bottom of the case is stronger and thicker than that of the Super. It actually holds less powder than the case for the Super can but because the case is stronger can produce higher pressures and thus velocities. For example Winchester produces a load with a 125 gr. Silvertip that gets 1450 fps and 583 ft.pds of energy at the muzzle. This is more than any load for the Super that they produce and the 9x23 handloaded can get more.
Yes you can shoot the 9x23 from a 38 Super barrel. A heavier recoil spring will be called for and, if you plan on shooting a lot, maybe a heavier mainspring as well. Barrels for the 9x23 tend to have a shorter life than barrels for the Super though. So I'd shoot it through a dedicated barrel myself.
Now on the 40 S&W lets look at two loads from CorBon:
CorBon offer a 40 S&W load with a 135 gr. bullet at 1325 fps for 526 ft.pds. of energy.
CorBon offers also a good load for the Super of a 125 gr. bullet at 1325 fps and 487 ft pds of energy.
With a heavier and slightly larger bullet the 40 generates as much velocity and more energy. With a 165 gr. bullet CorBon, Remington and Winchester offer loads for the 40 that generate around 480 ft. pds. of energy at about1150 fps.
So if a fella has a 40 S&W he or she may not see the "need" for the Super as it don't give them anything they all ready can't get ballistically.
The 45acp has received alot of development the last few years I'll use CorBon loads as an example again just to keep things even. They offer a 165 gr. load for the 45acp at 1250 fps and 573 ft pds of energy which beats both the above mentioned loads.
Now we could play around with various weight bullets and loads, velocities and energy figures, look at the 357 Sig vs. the Super or the 9x23, argue if 50 ft. per second makes a big difference or 20 grs. makes a big difference but the point is that you don't really ballistically get something from the Super that a person can't get elsewhere. Choices are good.
So what do you get?
You get a round with an interesting history. A round that has been chambered in some of the best handguns ever made. A round that gives you more than the 9mm does. A round that can give you a gun as effective as the .357 Mag in many of it's defensive loadings with more rounds on tap and faster reloads. A round that is easier to reload than a bottlenecked case. A round that can use most any 9mm or 38 caliber bullet giving you many choices if you reload. And a round that has a growing number of good commercial loads available for it. A very good round one I prefer over the 40 S&W, over the 9mm and certainly over the .357 Sig.
A friend and I worked up a load for it a few years back with a 148 gr. semi jacketed lhp bullet at 1300 fps which was a very good deer load.
I like the Super cuz I like it. To me it is one of the best rounds available. Comfortable to shoot.
tipoc
For the last 25 or so years there have been 3 rounds which have received unprecedented attention from ammo manufacturers and have improved their ballistic performance greatly. These are the 9mm, the 40S&W and the .45 acp. The .38 Super has not received as much attention, unfortunately.
The 9mm is a much better round than it was 20 years ago. But even in it's best loadings, where it is operating at it's peak pressures, the Super can still beat it by 100 fps or so and can do this without reaching peak pressures. For some shooters though the extra punch may not be worth it.
The 9x23 uses a case which has the same external dimensions as the Super. It can operate at higher pressures than the Super though because internally the bottom of the case is stronger and thicker than that of the Super. It actually holds less powder than the case for the Super can but because the case is stronger can produce higher pressures and thus velocities. For example Winchester produces a load with a 125 gr. Silvertip that gets 1450 fps and 583 ft.pds of energy at the muzzle. This is more than any load for the Super that they produce and the 9x23 handloaded can get more.
Yes you can shoot the 9x23 from a 38 Super barrel. A heavier recoil spring will be called for and, if you plan on shooting a lot, maybe a heavier mainspring as well. Barrels for the 9x23 tend to have a shorter life than barrels for the Super though. So I'd shoot it through a dedicated barrel myself.
Now on the 40 S&W lets look at two loads from CorBon:
CorBon offer a 40 S&W load with a 135 gr. bullet at 1325 fps for 526 ft.pds. of energy.
CorBon offers also a good load for the Super of a 125 gr. bullet at 1325 fps and 487 ft pds of energy.
With a heavier and slightly larger bullet the 40 generates as much velocity and more energy. With a 165 gr. bullet CorBon, Remington and Winchester offer loads for the 40 that generate around 480 ft. pds. of energy at about1150 fps.
So if a fella has a 40 S&W he or she may not see the "need" for the Super as it don't give them anything they all ready can't get ballistically.
The 45acp has received alot of development the last few years I'll use CorBon loads as an example again just to keep things even. They offer a 165 gr. load for the 45acp at 1250 fps and 573 ft pds of energy which beats both the above mentioned loads.
Now we could play around with various weight bullets and loads, velocities and energy figures, look at the 357 Sig vs. the Super or the 9x23, argue if 50 ft. per second makes a big difference or 20 grs. makes a big difference but the point is that you don't really ballistically get something from the Super that a person can't get elsewhere. Choices are good.
So what do you get?
You get a round with an interesting history. A round that has been chambered in some of the best handguns ever made. A round that gives you more than the 9mm does. A round that can give you a gun as effective as the .357 Mag in many of it's defensive loadings with more rounds on tap and faster reloads. A round that is easier to reload than a bottlenecked case. A round that can use most any 9mm or 38 caliber bullet giving you many choices if you reload. And a round that has a growing number of good commercial loads available for it. A very good round one I prefer over the 40 S&W, over the 9mm and certainly over the .357 Sig.
A friend and I worked up a load for it a few years back with a 148 gr. semi jacketed lhp bullet at 1300 fps which was a very good deer load.
I like the Super cuz I like it. To me it is one of the best rounds available. Comfortable to shoot.
tipoc
That's not correct. The 9x23 Winchester is a tapered, rimless case. The Super is straight and semi-rimmed.
http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm
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Deltaboy1984
Member
Great round if that what you want then carry it.
Chuck Warner
Member
I,too,prefer the super and 9x23. I carry them exclusivily and have had no trouble getting ammo. you can shoot the factory super loads in the 9x23 and carry the factory 9x23 for carry.
I have shot no less than 20,000 rnds a year for classes and matches and I find the Newer Nonte chamber (super) to be inherently very accurate. My personal 9x23 will keep ten in a picnic plate at 100 yds and I could ask for no more, especially with me shooting. with factory Mag-Tech ball ammo in .38 super fired in the 9X23 I average about 5" at 50 yds for ten shots. reloads cut that to about 3".... all of 'em kill coyotes well
I have shot no less than 20,000 rnds a year for classes and matches and I find the Newer Nonte chamber (super) to be inherently very accurate. My personal 9x23 will keep ten in a picnic plate at 100 yds and I could ask for no more, especially with me shooting. with factory Mag-Tech ball ammo in .38 super fired in the 9X23 I average about 5" at 50 yds for ten shots. reloads cut that to about 3".... all of 'em kill coyotes well
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Chuck Warner
Member
.....and I will say you can NOT shoot a 9x23 in a properly chambered .38 super barrel. one of the original design goals was to avoid exactly that. I was not real close with John Ricco, but I did build the first gun ever with the final case design and was fortunate enough to spend a great deal of time working with him, albeit over the phone, to understand the long term merits of the design.
I have never owned a 9x23, (And neither did many others, eh? One of the great cartridge marketing failures of all time.) but as I recall the case was rimless, being the 9x19 (9mm Luger) stretched to the same length as the semi-rimmed Super case. I would not think one could be fired in the others chamber.
tipoc
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I'm including some info here from well known pistolsmith R.D. Burns. On his website he says...
Note that he indicates that there is confusion about what to fire out of what. It's also the case that over the years various stretched 9mm rounds have been tried (9mm Largo, 9x23 STW, 9x21, etc) and folks sometimes confuse info or rumors on one with the other. I agree with Burns. If you want the best performance from your gun and the round, and minimize the potential for problems, use the proper barrel for the round.
A link to Burns site on the 9x23 is below and is good reading.
http://www.burnscustom.com/showarticle.php3?article=9x23/9x23WhereAreWe.php3
http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html
tipoc
Note that he indicates that there is confusion about what to fire out of what. It's also the case that over the years various stretched 9mm rounds have been tried (9mm Largo, 9x23 STW, 9x21, etc) and folks sometimes confuse info or rumors on one with the other. I agree with Burns. If you want the best performance from your gun and the round, and minimize the potential for problems, use the proper barrel for the round.
A link to Burns site on the 9x23 is below and is good reading.
http://www.burnscustom.com/showarticle.php3?article=9x23/9x23WhereAreWe.php3
http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23/reload.html
tipoc
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tipoc
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And you're correct to do so. Sometimes I type faster than I remember.
Layne Simpson has a useful book out on custom 1911s which has some useful info on both the Super and the 9x23 (as well as a batch more rounds that have been crammed into Browning's design) and is worth the price for a handy reference.
tipoc
Chuck Warner
Member
9x23
TIPOC,
While I dont know Mr Burns, I will say that if you read the cartridge prints In the book by Mr Simpson that you mentioned, you will see that in proper chambers,a 9x23 will not seat in a super chamber.
I dont claim any great intimate knowledge of the current load status, but if you read the information on the gun on the cover of that book, you will see that it is the first gun ever in the official 9x23.
That gun was built by yours truly and a 9x23 and .38 super have been at my side since. I have built them from officer size on up and getting back to the origins of the thread,I highly recommend the super and its derivatives as a carry cartridge
TIPOC,
While I dont know Mr Burns, I will say that if you read the cartridge prints In the book by Mr Simpson that you mentioned, you will see that in proper chambers,a 9x23 will not seat in a super chamber.
I dont claim any great intimate knowledge of the current load status, but if you read the information on the gun on the cover of that book, you will see that it is the first gun ever in the official 9x23.
That gun was built by yours truly and a 9x23 and .38 super have been at my side since. I have built them from officer size on up and getting back to the origins of the thread,I highly recommend the super and its derivatives as a carry cartridge
tipoc
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Chuck,
I went back to Simpson's book and also took a look at Barnes "Cartridges..." and Forker's "Ammo...". The latter two give slightly different dimensions for the 9x23. Forker gives the OAL of the case as .910 while Barnes has it as .9. Same as the OAL of the Super.
The case of the Super, as we know is a straight one .384 or so all the way. While the 9x23 tapers from about .379 or so to .390.
In a properly built barrel with a proper chamber one should not seat properly in the other. Nor feed reliably. But as you point out "proper" is the key. If the chamber is a bit off? Simpson has a few cautions in this regard which seem to make sense to me.
I've been some interested in the 9x23 for awhile in time I may get a gun, or at least another barrel, for some experimentation.
I see you've moved from Robuck. Still working I hope. Nice gun for Simpson.
tipoc
I went back to Simpson's book and also took a look at Barnes "Cartridges..." and Forker's "Ammo...". The latter two give slightly different dimensions for the 9x23. Forker gives the OAL of the case as .910 while Barnes has it as .9. Same as the OAL of the Super.
The case of the Super, as we know is a straight one .384 or so all the way. While the 9x23 tapers from about .379 or so to .390.
In a properly built barrel with a proper chamber one should not seat properly in the other. Nor feed reliably. But as you point out "proper" is the key. If the chamber is a bit off? Simpson has a few cautions in this regard which seem to make sense to me.
I've been some interested in the 9x23 for awhile in time I may get a gun, or at least another barrel, for some experimentation.
I see you've moved from Robuck. Still working I hope. Nice gun for Simpson.
tipoc
Chuck Warner
Member
TIPOC,
you are correct and thanks for the compliment. And yes I am still building
you are correct and thanks for the compliment. And yes I am still building
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