For those of you that go to carbine courses/classes

[SHusky57]

I was just curious on the high round count carbine classes.... if it seems like certain models of rifle/carbine seem to be more unreliable than others?

I've heard of people running hi-points that are more reliable that AR's and just about every urban myth that persists on the internet.

I'm wondering if the higher priced rifles (Les Baer, Sabre, Sig556) offer much over the S&W MP15 or the Bushmaster XM15 as far as reliability, durability, or accuracy.

Right now I'm set with my lever-action, but with an EOTech sitting around collecting dust I wouldn't mind trying to find a home for it.... I just can't really decide on a semi-auto rifle as none of them seem to have an edge over the others.

I'm going to hold onto the EOTech a little longer, if I end up deciding semi rifles aren't for me I can use it to fund a bolt-action or pump shotty.

I looked on the AR15 comparison chart at AR15.com and it seemed like Colt has the best parts..... but I wonder if the S&W could give it a run for the money (S&W has lifetime warranty I believe which helps push me in that direction).

 

[briansmithwins]

I did a rifle class 2 years ago. About 600 rounds were expended over 4 days.

We mostly had ARs in the class but there was an AK guy, a Steyr AUG, and other oddballs.

Several ARs had magazine problems which trashing the offending mags fixed. The lone M1A launched 1/2 of it's extractor and the S&W M&P shooter's disconnecter broke.

I also do our local rifle match every month. Since most of the shooters have switched to Pmags I've seen a lot less malfunctions in the ARs. AKs that run keep running but those built by shade tree manufacturers can have problems.

Personally I shoot either of 2 (20" or 16" barreled) ARs or an AK. All my rifles work. Actually, all my guns work. Ones that don't function 100% get fixed or replaced. BSW

 

[TexasRifleman]

Im wondering if the higher priced rifles (Les Baer, Sabre, Sig556) offer much over the S&W MP15 or the Bushmaster XM15 as far as reliability, durability, or accuracy.

I've run 3 day carbine classes, in the 1200 round range, with bone stock Bushmasters more than once.

I've run several 2 day classes, 600-800 round range, with Rock Rivers and Bushies, bone stock.

Don't buy into the hype that you have to have a super high end gun to survive something like this.

What you have to have is a rifle that's been broken in ahead of time and had any bugs worked out.

So many people show up to these things with new in the box rifles. That's a horrible idea.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It just depends. All manufacturers put out lemons from time to time, including Colt. Some just seem to have more luck at it than others.

I've never seen an MSTN upper have a problem for example. They run like sewing machines. My own Bushmasters have been great; but I've seen several Bushmasters that weren't.

If I had to grab a rifle out of the box and do a carbine course with no spare, then I would be looking at a high end brand. However, if you've got the time and the inclination to troubleshoot (and a range to shoot where you can use it like you will in class), then you can take pretty much any AR and make it run with enough work.

Carbine classes aren't cheap though. You can spend as much on one as a vacation. Even a quick 3-day class at a local range with only 1,000 rounds rifle and 200 pistol will run upwards of $1,750 by the time you add up food, travel, training and ammo (and this does not include gear costs). You don't want to have that kind of investment ruined because you went cheap on something - especially if you are doing any of the well-known 5-day classes or flying.

 

[possum]

i have ran a bushmaster ar through 2 5 day courses, i personally had no issues. good rifle, with good mags, the right lube and good ammo and i was good to go, as well as many training events on my home range that replecate training course round counts and abuse. i have also been using the ar platform in the Army for over 6 years and 2 deployments to the sandbox. the most common problems i see is mag issues, feed lips being spread causing issues, or just worn springs causing failures to feed, worn out extractors causing failures to extract. But again if you properly clean, lube and maintain your ar you won’t have things like this to worry about, well I will say that that will do a lot to prevent such things. i have seen whole bolts sheer, however that bolt had many many thousands of rounds through it, 30,000+ IIRC maybe more, and should have been replaced long before. The only issue bigger than mag issues that I have/ do see is when people come to a course and use Wolf ammo. Lots of failures to extract more than anyting. Casings get stuck in the chamber and are a pain in the rear to get out. however i couldn't be happier with my bushmaster, that is why i still have one, and the reason i bought an a3 model when i sold my a2. (i wanted the flat top for optics mounting.)

RRA, Bushmaster, Colt, SLR 15's, have all ran good, and like was said above every company puts out a lemon every once in a while, but the above have ran good from what i have seen.

when i get back from my next deployment i will be running my ar through another carbine course, which one i don't know yet, but it will be a high round count, intense class, and i will defiantly share an aar. i will be running p mags exclusively through this one.

 

[taliv]

I have a feeling this thread will once again illuminate the difference between 'anecdotes' and 'data'.

Once again, think big picture: you're paying as Bartholomew pointed out, upwards of $1750... for what?

some guy's advice and experience. some guy who watches hundreds of thousands of rounds expended annually. ASK HIM WHAT HE THINKS YOU SHOULD BRING. THEN TAKE HIS ADVICE.


(tip: don't bring a les baer AR to a carbine class).

 

[possum]

oh yeah i almost forgot, optic issues. the most common issues that i have seen is when folks don't locktite the bolts/ screws etc, and optics either get loose and shift zero or come off all together. also if you run an eotech and you have a "aa" version as i do, use lithium batteries, as far as that goes anything that you trust your life on if lithium is an option go that route.

 

[SHusky57]

(tip: don't bring a les baer AR to a carbine class).

But in the Les Baer ad they said all the top law enforcement and special forces ninjas were using their stuff....

Okay, I kid, I kid.

As far as a ranch rifle, my lever-action 30-30 is sufficient for now.

I have had a PTR-91 and a WASR-10 in the past, but the only semi I own now is a Mini-14....

I would like to have one "tacticool" rifle in the collection but it's difficult to pick. If I am going to spend +$400-600 more on this "tacticool" rifle than my lever-action or mini-14, I should think it should work, and preferably outperform the Marlin or Mini. Ya know what I mean?

 

[sarduy]

So many people show up to these things with new in the box rifles. That's a horrible idea.

+1

i haven't go to a carbine class, BUT i have done a lot of shooting in my life time, i see a lot of guys that show up at shooting match with New out-the-box rifles "without cleaning, or broken in) just to find that their rifle dont like wulf or the 40gr they got at walmart won't shoot in their 1/7 barrel...

it doesn't matter if you use a hi-end or low-end AR as long as you have shoot it quite a few times to get to know the rifle and it's capability. (get to know what it likes "mags & ammo" and what it doesn't like"

i own an AR that i built with a CMMG kit on a Spike's Tactical lower and i feel very "VERY" comfortable and confident about using it in a carbine class.

 

[Al Thompson]

FWIW, I have Colts and CMMG/Stag parts guns. Like BSW, if it doesn't work, fix it or sell it.

Couple of keys/trends here. One, looks like everybody who's replied is experienced. Two, you may note magazines are very important. I would add adequate lube to that list. Three, we seem to all agree - no matter what you get, test it!

For me, I like to load about ten rounds per magazine (I've found that magazines choke either in the first few rounds or last few) and run several hundred rounds down range at a variety of speeds. The more you shoot your rifle, the better you understand it.