For Those Who Have Fired in Self-Defense: How Much Time Did You Have to React?

[MisterMike]

Here's the question that is bouncing around in my noggin: It seems to me that most situations that lead to the use of deadly force in self-defense evolve over a matter of seconds, sometimes longer. However, we all worry about the bad guy leaping out from dark alley, requiring an almost instantaneous reaction.

For those who have actually had to draw or shoot a gun in self-defense, how long did it take? Did you see the situation evolving, or were you presented with a sudden, unexpected threat that required you to draw and shoot reflexively?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Plenty of time. But that's because situations tend to build over time, and a wary individual will try to avoid being surprised so badly they cannot defend themselves before being incapacitated. It happens, but thank God, not yet to me.

 

[SIRVEYR666]

These replies should be interesting...hopefully Loki will reply.

Normally, the people that can really answer these questions do not want to. I totally understand that...

 

[Duke of Doubt]

I can't wait for LOKI to tell us all about how "Seconds count!"

 

[MisterMike]

Normally, the people that can really answer these questions do not want to. I totally understand that...

I can understand that. For those who are willing to share their experiences, I think this could be valuable to all of us. Very few have had the experience of actually having to employ their weapons.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Seconds??
Sometimes it's not that long.

You just read those 2 lines?
It's all over by now.

AFS

 

[steveracer]

Lots of time. Last gunfight I was anywhere near, I had enough time to unlock my car, get in, start it up, and drive away fast. Gangbangers shooting each other about 500 feet away. Saw it coming, kept on moving toward my vehicle.

 

[MisterMike]

Seconds??
Sometimes it's not that long.

I think we all understand that. However, my original post was asking for those who have been in the situation to describe their actual experiences. Please share your story if you've been through this. Thanks.

 

[steveracer]

Only gunfights where I actually fired were in Iraq. Did use a handgun. Did have to draw, acquire, fire, and reload VERY fast. Had maybe three seconds from empty rifle to empty M-9. Felt like a bowling pin match. Fast, fast, fast, and it seemed like the target was never going down.

 

[JT1JT1]

I'm very interested in the answers here, although I wonder if they'll be skewed by the fact that the people who needed to react "instantaneously" might be less likely to be around to reply.

In my own risk-management scenario, I'm weighting much more heavily, for example, the likelihood of the dog waking me up as the BG enters the house rather than me first finding the BG at the foot of the bed.

Then again, my financial risk management scenario weighted a down market of 20% much higher than a down market of 50%, so there 'ya go...

...so you can see why I'm interested in the answers here...

 

[Mainsail]

The motto we used when computing flight data was, "Plan for the worst, hope for the best."

If you plan to have time and you don't, you're screwed. If you plan to not have much time and you do, it's just bonus.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Please share your story if you've been through this

MisterMike,

Such stories are generally considered very personal in nature. A significant number of the folks who have such stories often prefer not to talk about them for that reason, even for educational purposes. Please don't get your feelings hurt if you don't get pages and pages of replies here...

And for the comedians among us- please remember this is a serious topic. Treat it as such, or more is likely to be deleted than throwaway posts.

Thanks,

lpl

 

[MisterMike]

Such stories are generally considered very personal in nature. A significant number of the folks who have such stories often prefer not to talk about them for that reason, even for educational purposes. Please don't get your feelings hurt if you don't get pages and pages of replies here...

Thanks . . . I understand that. I've worked as an LEO, then as a prosecutor for the past 32 years, and have dealt with the aftermath of a number of shootings. I know these things can have a lasting impact on the psyche, even when they are fully justified.

What I have seen here--and in other forums where these things are discussed--is that many of us do not have an appreciation for how these situations develop and ultimately play out. There's a lot of pontificating without the benefit of actual experience. If some are willing to share their experiences, even in a somewhat nonspecific manner, I think it would help those who might encounter these situations in the future.

Personally, I've never been in a shooting situation, though back in my LEO days I was involved in armed confrontations on a few occasions. My meager experience under those circumstances was that there was generally a gradual escalation, then a tipping point where things got dangerous pretty quickly.

 

[squinty]

Never been in a gunfight, and never never ever want to be anywhere near one. A few times I came close: walking downtown I had just stepped onto the sidewalk and was headed towards the entrance to the deck where my car was parked. A group of late teens/early twenties kids walking the same direction in the middle of the street kept turning and yelling at the doorman of the club they had just left. Suddenly one of them yelled "say somethin' back to this!" (or words to that effect) and yanked what looked like a Walther or Bersa .380 from his pants pocket and fired three shots back towards the club, not really looking where he was shooting or breaking stride, just half turning his body as he walked and pointing the gun behind him. Then he put the gun away. Less than a second to take the gun out, squeeze the trigger a couple times and stash it again. Lot's of buildup to the firearm use, but the actual deployment and use of the gun was very sudden and brief. Noone hit. I just stepped into the garage, used my cellphone instead of my gun and pointed out where they had gone when the police went by. Lot's of cops in that part of downtown at that hour, a car was less than a block away. I could have hidden behind one of the pillars of the garage and taken my time to draw and ambush, but elected not to. It wouldn't have been self defense since he wasn't shooting at me, and by the time I processed that there was a gun threat, he had stopped shooting and didn't seem like he would start again, and it wasn't my job to apprehend him. Go ahead and call me a wuss, but I think I made the right decision.
Another occasion, a friend of mine and I were robbed in a Wal-Mart parking lot. No gun on me, but during the robbery he pointed the gun at my friend, away from me and asked my friend to lay down across the seat of my friend's car. I was standing at the trunk, and had I been armed could easily have taken a careful, aimed shot at close range and taken the guy out while he messed with my friend, as it was I ran around the car towards the robber with some vague idea of grabbing or pushing him, and almost stepped into the barrel of his pistol (two tone browning Hi Power, silver frame blue slide) as he brought it to bear on me. He asked me to empty my pockets and I refused, and by this time a cashier and a shopping cart attendant (no security at all - I should have yelled "shoplifter!") saw what was going on and rushed out to the car yelling that they'd already called the police, and the guy ran to a car and sped off. I followed him to his car and read part of the license plate but had to jump aside as he nearly backed the car over me. Had I been armed, there would have been plenty of time even before the guy drew down on us, as I saw him walking in our direction, got a really bad apprehensive feeling about him for reasons I couldn't quite put my finger on, and then dismissed that feeling as paranoia and turned my attention away from him. I'll never doubt my instincts again, and this scary incident was what motivated me to acquire and learn more about weapons and self defense. (They caught the guy sometime later. Something like 19 counts of armed robbery!)
The only shot I ever fired in anger was at a dog (maybe a coyote) that came into my yard and attacked my chow. They spun around awfully fast but separated for just a tiny split second, and I took that opportunity to draw and shoot (I pack at home) but I'm embarrassed to say I was in such a hurry that I drew and shot one handed, from the hip, without even trying for any sort of sight picture. The other dog yipe-yiped and ran away but I'm pretty sure it was from the noise of my pistol (short barreled .45) instead of from being hit or injured. Actually I hope I didn't hit it because I never got a second shot and never saw it again, by the time I had checked my dog for injuries the other dog was long gone. I looked for it. There was some blood but it may well have been from the dog fight. Hate to think I wounded but failed to kill an animal, but I was more concerned about my dogs wounds. That incident made me think more about point shooting and shooting from retention positions and ways of shooting that don't involve two hands, front sight, shooting stance, etc. since that's how I wound up using the gun under pressure. No actual gunfights, sorry for the long and only tangentially related post.

 

[X-Rap]

I think it depends on the other guy. I my case direct presentation wasn't required but I had the gun in hand in my gym shorts.
I went to the outdoor vending area of the motel I was staying in late. I approached the well lit area alert to the surroundings and bought my sodas and as I removed the last one I noticed movement to my right and turned to see a man standing 15-20 feet from me. He would fit the profile of the homeless so it alarmed me and my hand went to the gun. He stared at me and I back at him as I backed away and went to my room.
I have often wondered if my move to the gun tharwarted an attack or if the soda cans rolling from the machine just woke him up.
What I do believe is had he attacked quickly from the shadows with violence I would likely had to make up ground after being caught by surprise and if he were armed with a knife or blunt weapon I likely would have lost.
So in conclusion I am not one to shoot and ask questions later but certainly believe in being armed and going to the gun at the first sign of danger because seconds are really an understatement if some one means you harm.
The criminal has no sense of honor and what ever a person thinks I firmly believe that when given a chance an attack will come without notice.

 

[rogerjames]

Had I been armed, there would have been plenty of time even before the guy drew down on us, as I saw him walking in our direction, got a really bad apprehensive feeling about him for reasons I couldn't quite put my finger on, and then dismissed that feeling as paranoia and turned my attention away from him. I'll never doubt my instincts again,

If you've never read "The Gift of Fear", it is a fantastic book about awareness and instinct. He relates in the book that almost every animal on the planet acts or reacts immediately to their instincts, but as humans, we tend to dismiss, or rationalize them, instead of reacting to them. A fantastic read filled with a lot of "real life" stories of SD situations.

Based on your statement above, you would NOT have had plenty of time to react, because you dismissed that feeling and turned your attention away from him.

 

[Yosemite Sam]

I've only had one major violent encounter, and I was 18 (no CCW). I already posted the long story on THR, so I'll summarize:

18-year-old small-town boy moved to a city of 2 million people for college. Was taking a walk in a gang-infested area. Alone. At night. I thought it was a good night to take a stroll and do some thinking. Stupid me. Lesson 1: Evil is in the world and will come to you for no reason. Avoid going out at night!

Anyway, I got ambushed from behind on the sidewalk by 3 guys. No time to react. Didn't hear them coming. I turned around and immediately a fist hit me in the right eye. Blurry vision, only left eye working. More punches. Run the hell away into the red-light intersection and get in a car to escape! was my plan. The only words I heard any of them say the whole time was "Let's kill 'im." And one thing I'll never forget: the grinning. When they first started the attack, they had looks of hatred and evil on their faces. But as the attack progressed, their faces turned to grins. Big, happy grins. They were enjoying it. They were possessed by evil. It's burned into my mind.

So had I been carrying, I would have taken the first several punches but would have had time to draw as I ran in the middle of the street. BUT had they stabbed me in the back or used a blunt object on my head and knocked me out, I would've been dead. The fact that they used fists (still deadly) is the only reason I'm alive. 'Cause 3 guys can deliver a LOT of punches in a minute or two, enough to kill easily, but the first few punches didn't knock me to the ground so it bought me some time to run. Turns out, even though I was young and 18, they were also young and in better shape, plus the tactical advantage of 3 guys "surrounding" you and closing in. Which they did, so I had to weave in and out of cars. I played a real-life version of Frogger but with bad guys too.

rogerjames talked about humans ignoring their instinct. I half-ignored it that night. I passed in front of a gas station where the 3 guys were loitering (leaning against the front exterior wall) and heard a whistle. I was thinking, "What the heck? Are they whistling to me? I don't have drugs to sell. I'm not their buddy, and I'm not their enemy in my mind." So I ignored the threat and picked up pace. I felt a really, really strong "feeling" that something bad was about to happen, like the silent calm before a tornado.

This bad gut feeling is what caused me to come up with a plan. "OK, if something bad happens, I'm gonna run into the middle of the street and try to get in someone's car to escape." Having that silly-sounding plan in place allowed me to take action without having to think about it.

So in that way, I followed my gut. But I failed to follow my gut when they first whistled from across the street. I should've kept my eye on them, cause then I would've seen them cross the street, which would've bought me another 20 seconds of time. That's a lot of time that I forfeited...




This is the Strategies & Tactics forum, so they only other thing I'll add is: Don't rely on shadows showing up to let you know someone is following you. It sounds good in your head, but it doesn't work in real life. Street lights cast shadows in all sorts of directions, and sometimes not at all. Also, don't just rely on your ears to let you know of footsteps. I didn't hear footsteps until they were 1 second behind me. The only sure thing is to use your eyes and basically walk around spinning around and checking 360 degrees every couple seconds. Makes you look really paranoid, but what else can you do?

Most important lesson I learned: Avoiding a bad situation is the #1 thing you can do...


Edit to add: They never got caught. The attack happened on the jurisdiction between Cleveland and East Cleveland, and both PDs threw me back and forth. Nobody gave a damn. And I didn't get a good look 'cause they knocked out my vision. "Uh, officer, they were black males, age 15-25, wearing... jackets..." Yeah, good luck. Just described every gang member right there. This was in 2001. I hope they're rotting in jail right now for other crimes.

 

[rogerjames]

This is the Strategies & Tactics forum, so they only other thing I'll add is: Don't rely on shadows showing up to let you know someone is following you. It sounds good in your head, but it doesn't work in real life. Street lights cast shadows in all sorts of directions, and sometimes not at all. Also, don't just rely on your ears to let you know of footsteps. I didn't hear footsteps until they were 1 second behind me. The only sure thing is to use your eyes and basically walk around spinning around and checking 360 degrees every couple seconds. Makes you look really paranoid, but what else can you do?

Sam, this is an excellent point. To reference the book I mentioned above again, the author Gavin DeBecker recommends anyone, but especially women, who are alone and feel that they are being followed... to turn around and make direct/firm eye contact with the suspicious person/persons. He states that in many instances, this is enough to diffuse the situation, as the element of surprise has been eliminated. Second, if something does happen, such as your situation Sam, you may better able to identify and describe them.