PWC
Member
Does the Army and/or Marines still teach bayonet drill/training? Not hand to hand, but bayonet on the end of the rifle. Don't know if the M16 and its derivitives can stand up to a buttstroke.
For you new kids on here..
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entropy
Member
The A2 buttstocks are much stronger than the A1's were. They still taught it when I was at Ft. Jackson in 1986. "Slice and dice!" Kill, Sir!"
Old Dog
Member
Marine Corps still does, at least as of 2018 or so.
AFAIK, the Army stopped teaching bayonet at least ten years, maybe longer, ago (brother retired five years ago, had been a D.I.). Funny, we were just talking about bayonets a couple weeks ago ...
AFAIK, the Army stopped teaching bayonet at least ten years, maybe longer, ago (brother retired five years ago, had been a D.I.). Funny, we were just talking about bayonets a couple weeks ago ...
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PWC
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Does the Army issue a knife to replace the bayonet? We used to carry both. Used the bayonet fo all cutting/prying I wouldn't use my MK2 for. I'm sure the Marines still issue the MK2 or equilivent fighting knife.
FL-NC
Member
I see little if any application for bayonet training in the modern era. The bayonet itself is heavy and not even a very good implement for general purpose use as a knife. In the US Special Operations community, most M4 carbines aren't even capable of accepting a bayonet. The last time I am aware of bayonets mounted on rifles during combat was when the Rangers were attacking the commandancia during Just Cause in Panama in 1989. I think that was just a case of the Rangers being Rangers, bless their hearts. Outside of the possible exception of use for intimidation in civil unrest for the National Guard or maybe the MP corps, I don't think they are relevant. And even in the case of civil unrest, I haven't seen them employed by anyone. I am unaware of any police forces even having them.
1942bull
Member
The Marine Corps does in fact teach bayonet fighting, it has always been an integral part of basic training since the Corps has from its beginning emphasized basic combat skills as part of its insistence that every Marine is a rifleman to begin with and could be called upon to act in that capacity at any time. And part of knowing how to use a rifle in the Corps is knowing how to use it with a bayonet attached.
The Army was still doing bayonet training up to 1996 that I am aware of. I got out in Feb. 96 and there were not a lot of M4 carbines being issued outside of Special Forces, Rangers, 82nd and 101st Airborne. The M4 was just starting to trickle into other divisions for combat vehicle crews as a replacement of the M3A1. I did my bayonet training in 1989 with a M16A1 at Fort Leonardwood. "What makes the grass grow? Blood Drill Sergeant, Blood"
AlexanderA
Member
What makes you say that? The A1 buttstocks are still my preference, due to their dimensions, and I have no reason to doubt their sturdiness. The A2 stocks that I see on the commercial market seem to be made in China (and so may not be typical of what was actually issued). Still, they don't seem particularly stronger to me.
entropy
Member
I replaced several cracked ones as an Armorer. Whatever plastic the were made of, and I remember the word 'phenolic' bantered around back then, they got brittle with age. The A2 stocks seem to be made of a different type of plastic.
edwardware
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I am not a soldier, but I do have a hobbyist's interest in the psychology of violence.
One of the goals of most 20th Century training of solders is to overcome the basic human hesitation to kill. This hesitation becomes stronger the more psychologically proximate the target; bomber pilots sleep well, snipers have PTSD.
Training Marines to use a bayonet might be useless, but you need training to teach decent people to kill another man while looking him in the eyes. Maybe bayonet training carries some of that value.
ETA: Obligatory plug for On Killing and On Combat by Grossman.
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The A1's that I dealt with all had the E type stocks with trap doors and definitely were not phenolic. The E type A1 and the A2 GI stocks are pretty tough. I have seen both get cracked and broken. I wasn't an armorer but as a machinist I had armorers bring all kinds of stuff to me to work on.
CapnMac
Member
That's been an argument both for and against "pugil stick" training. Which is still used, if in a limited way, at Marine Basic, IIRC.
Cracked stocks are really nothing new--I can't find it now (naturally) but there was a report about how Boot Camps were the largest demand for spare stocks in the 50s (when they all were wooden).
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
1966 dinosaur geezer here.
Had bayonet training. Only heard the command "fix bayonets" once.New LT screamed it in the Au Shau valley. Platoon Sgt suggested we call in artillery and tac air instead!
Bayonet returned to scabbard.
Had bayonet training. Only heard the command "fix bayonets" once.New LT screamed it in the Au Shau valley. Platoon Sgt suggested we call in artillery and tac air instead!
Bayonet returned to scabbard.
AlexanderA
Member
For my last few builds, I wanted to use A1 stocks, but it was impossible to find them new. So I sourced several used stocks, all of which had cosmetic cracks and scratches. I filled the cracks and scratches with gel-type Super Glue, sanded the stocks smooth, and gave them a coat of flat black paint. Good as new!
The buttplates with trap doors are also somewhat hard to find new. Note that an A2 trapdoor, although close, is not the same. An A2 door will fit on an A1 buttplate, but won't quite be flush. It's a little thicker.
Korea or Vietnam? Can't remember which...1966 dinosaur geezer here.
Had bayonet training. Only heard the command "fix bayonets" once.New LT screamed it in the Au Shau valley. Platoon Sgt suggested we call in artillery and tac air instead!
Bayonet returned to scabbard.
Unless you guys were completely out of ammo and the radios broken, why in Hell would your LT order "Fix Bayonets"? The Platoon Sgt was way wiser then the LT was.
Was the LT fresh out of officer school?
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
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PWC
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Had a friend in 1966, in te 5th SF Reserve and worked for the telephone co. As an installer at the Presidio... said during the Korean war the word to fix bayonets was passed down the line. The NK's had been blasting them with loud speakers all night. He said when the bugles sounded, the Army turned on the klieg lights and across the valley and it looked like a bunch of ants coming down the ridge across the valley. Most scared he ever was. Didn't say much more except it was a long night, and they had to push the pile of NK bodes down so the machine guns had a field of fire. Both sides used thier bayonets. Morning came and the US still held the high ground.
lemaymiami
Member
Glad to hear that the Marines still teach bayonet... I was never a marine - but in the Army, assigned to the 101Abn in 1971... That summer I was briefly stationed north of Hue - after the marines had departed. That was a very lonely feeling....
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PWC
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Yes, misery loves company....
Frulk
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Interesting discussion. I dabble in US military history.
I have no doubt many mil units have mounted bayonets in the 60's, 70's and 80's as examples were given above from personal accounts.
The LAST documented bayonet 'charge' I'm aware of in US military history were a commanding officer of a unit ordered to 'fix bayonets' and then proceeded to dislodge an enemy from their fortified positions was on 7 Feb 1951. That was the second time in 4 days Capt. Millet Lewis (born Mechanicsville, Maine) ordered a mounted bayonet charge. For this second action he was bestowed the MoH.
On March 10th, 1966 for actions taken at A Shau Valley Maj Bernard Fisher (born San Bernadino, Calif.) became the 1st 'living' AF recipient of the Medal of Honor. This was also the 1st AF MoH of the Vietnam War.
On a number of occasions he (then retired Col Fisher) sat in my office and we would shoot the breeze on a number of topics. On one particular noteworthy visit he recounted that fateful day. With tears streaming down his cheeks he took no credit for his actions and said the real hero's were his wing men who strafed the airfield twice while out of ammunition, becoming in effect unarmed targets to distract the 4,000 NV Regulars surrounding the airfield as he was taxiing in/out in an attempt to rescue the downed pilot. Pretty humbling to sit there and listen.
He passed away a few years ago and is buried in the Veterans cemetery in Kuna Idaho. Biker Doc mentioning A Shau reminds me that I need to pay him a visit.
The DoD pays to have personal coins minted for each MoH recipient. His coin shows the SLC Mormon temple on the right. He's one of 11 Latter Day Saints to have earned the MoH.
And since this thread is about bayonets I'll get back on topic and offer this personal observation...they never jam and they don't run out of ammo.
I have no doubt many mil units have mounted bayonets in the 60's, 70's and 80's as examples were given above from personal accounts.
The LAST documented bayonet 'charge' I'm aware of in US military history were a commanding officer of a unit ordered to 'fix bayonets' and then proceeded to dislodge an enemy from their fortified positions was on 7 Feb 1951. That was the second time in 4 days Capt. Millet Lewis (born Mechanicsville, Maine) ordered a mounted bayonet charge. For this second action he was bestowed the MoH.
1966 dinosaur geezer here.
Had bayonet training. Only heard the command "fix bayonets" once. New LT screamed it in the Au Shau valley. Platoon Sgt suggested we call in artillery and tac air instead!
Bayonet returned to scabbard.
On March 10th, 1966 for actions taken at A Shau Valley Maj Bernard Fisher (born San Bernadino, Calif.) became the 1st 'living' AF recipient of the Medal of Honor. This was also the 1st AF MoH of the Vietnam War.
On a number of occasions he (then retired Col Fisher) sat in my office and we would shoot the breeze on a number of topics. On one particular noteworthy visit he recounted that fateful day. With tears streaming down his cheeks he took no credit for his actions and said the real hero's were his wing men who strafed the airfield twice while out of ammunition, becoming in effect unarmed targets to distract the 4,000 NV Regulars surrounding the airfield as he was taxiing in/out in an attempt to rescue the downed pilot. Pretty humbling to sit there and listen.
He passed away a few years ago and is buried in the Veterans cemetery in Kuna Idaho. Biker Doc mentioning A Shau reminds me that I need to pay him a visit.
The DoD pays to have personal coins minted for each MoH recipient. His coin shows the SLC Mormon temple on the right. He's one of 11 Latter Day Saints to have earned the MoH.
And since this thread is about bayonets I'll get back on topic and offer this personal observation...they never jam and they don't run out of ammo.
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