Force On Force Controversy

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smince

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FORCE ON FORCE CONTROVERSY?
Randy Harris - Suarez International Staff Instructor

Part I

The subject of Force on Force training is one that we should all consider. After all, what are we actually training for? Do we train to avoid getting mugged by a flat piece of cardboard that does not think move or try to hurt you or are we training to deal with living breathing thinking adversaries? The obvious answer is live adversaries. So if your training regimen does not or has never included any Force on Force component then how do you know whether what you are practicing REALLY works or not? Maybe you train with some "guru" who has been in many fights and never lost. All that really tells you is HE has a grasp of his material and was successful. It does not tell you how well you would fair using that in a real confrontation. So how do we know? We have to test it.

Some may say "well what I do works in my IDPA matches". Great. You are thoroughly ready to proactively face a 3 foot tall piece unarmed of cardboard after being told to get ready in advance . Again, not terribly realistic. There really is no reason to not avail oneself of FOF training today. Years ago it was only really available to military and police. But now however , with the wide availability of non lethal airsoft guns. The technology is there so that the average guy can spend $150 or so and be equipped to take a force on force class. Of course there are also Simunitions guns if you prefer to use marking cartridges, but the availability and price of the guns and ammo is somewhat prohibitive.

This brings us to our first controversy. Is the Airsoft gun really adequate for FOF training? There are some that make the argument that there needs to be a "pain penalty" for screwing up in FOF scenarios. I agree. What we are really doing is to some degree hardwiring the ability to make good decisions at a very fast subconscious level. In a real encounter we will not have long to make a decision. If we just stand and dither over whether it is "really happening to me?" or "what do I do now?" then we will likely have waited to long to do anything useful. Getting shot with non lethal yet painful projectiles reinforces that if we do not be decisive and act quickly then bad things will happen. This is where our subconscious starts compiling data for positive vs negative outcomes where action is concerned.

Now, do Sims rounds hurt more than airsoft? Absolutely. And we need that pain to get the message across to our brain that we are doing things that are giving an adverse outcome to what we would like. So in that respect airsoft is not as good for FOF as simunitions. But part of the problem is that students often show up for FOF classes looking like they are armored up for medieval combat. If you are so padded up that you cannot feel the BBs then you are really not getting the most out of the exercises. This is why I recommend that during scenario work you wear virtually no protective gear at all. Just head protection and maybe gloves.. Taking rounds in the hands , especially the knuckles, almost always causes bleeding. This way you know where you got hit, but still protect hands and face.I have seen people hit in the hands with airsoft pellets drop their pistols. I have also debriefed many participants and most all agree that it feels like a bee sting when hit. I'd have to agree. And depending on the distance, it sometimes hurts worse than other times. So yes if we limit the amount of padding we wear then Airsoft is perfectly adequate. In drill work I recommend a LITTLE more padding, maybe a long sleeve shirt, because when you are getting in maybe 50 fights or more per day there is only so much impact you are going to take before you get tired and sore and lose concentration. So for the drills I say pad up a little but run the scenarios with as little as possible.
 
Part II
The next controversy is whether you are better doing scenario work or drills. I mentioned scenario work earlier. That is full blown scenarios with role players who stick to a script of what they are going to do if the student does certain things. Often the instructions might be " Go panhandle the student, ask for money. You are not robbing him, just asking, but if he insults you or gets physical then you amp up the situation and get in his face, but if he just tells you he can't help you , then let him pass unmolested " . The point is that the scenario is not just wide open, the role players are playing a realistic defined part, not just running wild. The scenario based FOF is more in line with real world situations sometimes involving witnesses , maybe even the Police. It is essentially a test of your ability to negotiate whatever the situation is and successfully "survive" the encounter. Often -just like in real life- this can be done without getting into a fight at all.

The other type of FOF work is FOF drills. Gabe Suarez refers to the drill work as light sparring with a partner.The drills are little fights. There is no real decision making left on pre fight matters. In the drill the fight is unavoidable and usually begins with the bad guy initiating some sort of attack.The purpose is to give the students a lot of repetitions on the core skills need in a real confrontation. Those are seeing and reacting to the attack, get off the X if possible, access your weapon if you are armed , deploy that weapon from concealment and if it is a pistol, get hits on the target. These may sound simple, but many students who have never really ingrained these skills often have trouble at first doing all of these things at the same time under stress. After all some ranges do not even allow drawing a loaded pistol from a holster. So unless the student takes the time to work that skill on their own they likely will be a little behind the curve if we just drop them into scenario work from the start.

And I really do not understand why some people have such an issue with drills. We do drills in every other athletic endeavor we might pursue. I played basketball in high school and you'd better believe we did more than just scrimmage. We did drills every practice to build skill. The drills build the skills that you will then employ in the game. The same is true in unarmed self defense. I doubt many martial arts or combative instructors just have the students spar without first building the individual offensive and defensive skills through skill building drills. Even in IDPA and IPSC shooting , no one just practices by only shooting matches. They build their shooting, reloading and malfunction clearing ability through drills set up to build repetition in those areas. The match is then a validation (or invalidation) of their training regimen.

So for me the answer is simply this. Self defense, be it with empty hands or armed is an athletic endeavor. It does not mean you have to be an Olympian to survive. It simply means that the more athletic you are the more you will be able to do. There really is no way around that. Many of the skills that might be required in a violent encounter are able to be performed by everyday folks- IF they have been exposed to those skills. The problem is the majority of people have never found themselves in a violent confrontation, much less enough of them to draw any real statistical data from. Hence the need for FOF drills. The drills build the skills and allow you to use them in real time against an uncooperative real life opponent, not just a stationary human shaped form. It allows you to get many repetitions in being the victim of an assault and get a better perspective of just how little time there is to act and how much time and distance effect the dynamics of the confrontation.

Now just like in basketball or boxing or whatever, the drills will only take you so far. There comes a time to spar or scrimmage. That is where the skills we built in the drills is tested in the mock game. We wouldn't just work drills and then schedule a real boxing match. Just like no sane coach would keep his team from scrimmaging leading up to a game. To have a real idea of how everyone moves and acts and reacts you have to have the scenario work too. The scenario work is where you are able to work the whole package of skills from avoidance and deescalation to getting off the X, accessing pistol, marksmanship, 360 degree scan and even preparing witnesses and talking to the police. The first time you ever do these things does not need to be at 3 AM on a cold rainy night when it is for real!

Now a couple of other minor controversies. Some argue that FOF is not real because there is no ballistic effect- especially with airsoft. I agree . No one said it was REAL. But it is about as close as we can get without having a serious reworking of the liability waiver and a trauma unit on standby. That is why I recommend the least clothing you can get by with for the FOF iterations.In fact at the National Tactical Invitational I wore cargo shorts a T shirt and a light summer weight button down shirt as a cover garment. No padding or layers other than the face mask and neck protection they issued.

Another controversy is that the shooting while moving we teach leads to wild errant shooting and will get bystanders killed. Therefore we should stand still to shoot. I'm Ok with standing still as long as you are behind cover or you are farther than 10 yards distant form your pistol armed adversary. The problem is that if you are in a true initiative deficient situation where your first clue that the fight was on was seeing the guy reach in his waistband, then standing there trying to out draw him is not likely to have a long future to it. We really need to look at the context of the common criminal assault. It will likely be so close that you simply cannot make enough distance to keep from getting shot. This is one of those things that we find out rather quickly in those drills. If you cannot back up fast enough to avoid getting punched then how do you honestly expect to back up far enough, fast enough to keep from being shot? This is where guys that have only worked against motionless targets that do not shoot back (or shoot first) have an unrealistic view of the dynamics involved.

So if we concede that we cannot always make enough space quickly enough to just "make space and shoot" , then we will likely be in very close proximity to the target/bad guy when we shoot. Logical? So when we are shooting and moving this is often done at less than 3 yards. I submit that most anyone with skill at acquiring their pistol with good grip and a modicum of trigger control can make rapid multiple hits on targets at that distance. We are not talking about firing haphazardly over our shoulder as we sprint 20 yards away from the target. We are talking about drawing quickly as we explode laterally off the X and firing a burst at the target often with the muzzle 20 INCHES from the target. Not exactly haphazard reckless shooting by a long shot.

Also what are we looking to learn in drills? The point of the drills are to see what gets you shot less and gets the bad guy shot more. Not who can hit whom the most or who can run the farthest. The drill realistically is only useful for the first 3 to 5 seconds- the time frame of most actual fights. Anything past that is superfluous. And that 5 second and after time frame is where all the misses happen. The drills typically go like this. The bad guy attacks, the good guy gets off the X, shots are exchanged and they move farther apart. As they move apart they keep shooting and that is where the missing begins. But again, we are not looking at the last 3 seconds for data we are looking at the first 3 seconds. In fact I limit them to 3 to 5 rounds per fight when the drills are 1 on 1. This keeps the students focused on getting accurate hits not on hosing down the other guy as you run as fast as he can in the other direction. That is little more than a playground water gun fight.
 
Part III
The last controversy is how is your FOF class set up. Again, there are those who argue that only scenario work is realistic and that is all that should be done. Ok , fine. That is an opinion, but I do not agree. I have had students come through my FOF class (Suarez International's Interactive Gunfighting FOF) who had been to other schools that offered Force on Force classes. The other schools had done ONLY scenarios. The students said that they felt they got a better understanding of the dynamics of the confrontation and were now better prepared by doing the drills too. Now when they got into fights in the scenarios they were able to access the "solutions" they had been working all weekend and run those skill sets and prevail, whereas before they had a lot of decision making to do armed with only the skill sets they already had before they showed up. Now, let me repeat scenario work is crucial too.You need to test your total package of skills. And not only that, but scenario work that tests decision making, not just draw speed and marksmanship. A FOF scenario that is a glorified "shoot house burglar hunt" is frankly of little value.

The students need to be confronted with real life moral dilemmas and have to decide in real time what to do. There needs to be a lot of interaction verbally between the students and role players and there needs to be a level of multi tasking going on. That is why I like to use scenarios that have the student going through everyday life errands like going to the convenience store carrying bags or coming out of the mall talking on the cell phone and things like that where the student is engaged in more than just waiting to draw their gun. But again, I believe best results in the scenarios are obtained by those who have drilled the fundamentals to the point that their "fight skills" run on auto pilot and because of that they are freed up mentally to make decisions without worrying about what to do if the fight is on.

So whether you are an experienced gunman or a novice there is only one training environment that tests your total skill package and that is Force on Force. Get out and develop and test your skills in a structured FOF class
 
That last heated debate over a range drill and FoF left me wondering, how many of the people in American Rifleman's Armed Citizen column had either form of training? How many had just familiarization training?
 
That last heated debate over a range drill and FoF left me wondering, how many of the people in American Rifleman's Armed Citizen column had either form of training? How many had just familiarization training?

Yup. Kind of like reading the life stories of folks who won the lottery.

"Through no fault of my own -- I succeeded..."
 
I vote for 'familiarization for the masses' before we worry too much about FOF.

No doubt those who make a living dealing daily with deadly force need such, but what about the neighbor who called with this question:

I have this automatic pistols. The slide thing on top is stuck back. How do I get it to close?

He must have been to whatever class and missed part of the drill. More danger to his family than a bad guy is likely to be on average.
 
I can't see how it would not increase your chances of survivability.
The more reality the better, his time limits make sense so it doesn't turn into some paintball/capture the flag game.
How many of us believe in a close dirty gun/knife fight we wouldn't get hit/cut?
 
I don't know as I offered a comparison to a clean one so I wouldn't have a clue:evil::banghead:
I'm still struggling with the comparison of FOF to the dufus with the slide stuck back. Is that some sterotype of the American gun owner you have?
 
The "heated controversy" stemmed from smince and others berating a shooting drill meant for the shooting range because it was not FoF.

Makes as much sense as ordering a steak at a restaurant and then complaining because they didn't bring you lobster.

I don't have an issue with FoF training. There is a time and place for it. But when I participate in FoF, I don't dismiss it as worthless because they're not range shooting drills.....
 
x-Rap said:
I'm still struggling with the comparison of FOF to the dufus with the slide stuck back. Is that some sterotype of the American gun owner you have?

The point I was trying (not very well it seems) to address is that Joe Main St. would better be served by developing total familiarity with his weapon of choice and it's use than advanced class time, be it FOF or otherwise.

I spent a good many years working in LE, have spent a few days in drills myself, and am a licensed pistol instructor. I assure you I did not mean to disparage anyone, or to appear argumentative.
 
The point I was trying (not very well it seems) to address is that Joe Main St. would better be served by developing total familiarity with his weapon of choice and it's use than advanced class time, be it FOF or otherwise.

I agree. This is where shooting drills come in; to understand your gun and your abilities with it.
 
Heck, at least when I saw Army basic it went:

familiarization
marksmanship
drills (like reflexive fire)
FoF (although I seem to remember them having a different name for it)

They're all important and they continue to practice marksmanship & drills after FoF is done.

I should imagine many people don't go past familiarization and marksmanship. Heck, the vast majority probably don't ever pay for a FoF school. Of course, it's in the interest of people who run said schools for a living to convince average joe that he should get FoF instruction.
 
The "heated controversy" stemmed from smince and others berating a shooting drill meant for the shooting range because it was not FoF.
Randy wrote and titled this article LONG before I knew who David E was. It actually has little to do with you (sorry), other than to correct some misinformation regarding Force-on-Force.
 
familiarization
marksmanship
drills (like reflexive fire)
FoF (although I seem to remember them having a different name for it)

They're all important and they continue to practice marksmanship & drills after FoF is done.

I should imagine many people don't go past familiarization and marksmanship. Heck, the vast majority probably don't ever pay for a FoF school. Of course, it's in the interest of people who run said schools for a living to convince average joe that he should get FoF instruction.

True. They are all important. You can't do FoF unless you can put a round on a target. If you can't handle that basic skill, how can you hope to put a round on a moving, thinking, reacting target? You can't put rounds on target unless you know your weapon and what it is going to do.

AND, there is no "graduation" here. Once you get to FoF, you are NOT done with drills or marksmanship. One should always continue to hone skills on all of the levels. Don't just assume that marksmanship training is obsolete once you've started FoF training.

That is why I never post on her condemning or ridiculing some new shooting drill someone has come up with. Not everyone can do FoF training all the time. Sometimes when you're at the range, you only have the ammo for some basic marksmanship. Or you only have the facilities for drills, not FoF. That's ok. And even if one has the chance to do as much FoF training as possible, it never hurts to revisit the basics from time to time.
 
The point I was trying (not very well it seems) to address is that Joe Main St. would better be served by developing total familiarity with his weapon of choice and it's use than advanced class time, be it FOF or otherwise.

The reason boxers tend to be such effective fighters in real life situations is that they train in the adrenaline zone. With experience, they get comfortable there and can execute their skills. Joe Main St., for his part, has to deal with time dilation, loss of hearing, nausea, rubber legs, and usually a total loss of form.

Staying relaxed and cool under pressure is something you can train for and the more a shooter can develop that ability, the better the odds he or she will have in a SHTF situation. As "Armed Citizen" reports attest, this is not necessary to survive an outcome. It does, however, broaden the envelope of scenarios that one might successfully navigate.
 
familiarization
marksmanship
drills
FoF

This is what the Army and others have developed over the last one hundred years to provide the survival skills for soldiers going into combat. And it's just a basic overview.

We all tend to jump items in the list because we would like to think we are fully capable at that level. Like the neighbor who can't even release the retracted slide, it doesn't seem to be a big deal - certainly not a FAIL situation - because 1) "it won't happen if I really need to shoot someone," 2) "I probably won't really ever need to shoot someone."

And odds are they really won't need to shoot someone. If, at best, statistics tell us we won't have more than one "violent" encounter in our lives, then most of us won't bother getting ready for it. We deny by asking, what kind of violence? Road rage? Mr. Perkins drunk again banging on the wrong door in the apartment complex? Walking to your car late at Walgreens after a trip to the emergency room and seeing two 'bangers shooting each other to decide a turf issue?

Most of us live in "condition white" so much we can't tell our spouse is cheating on us.

The "controversy" in discussing FOF training is usually because someone hasn't gone through the levels of training fully to understand the end game - surviving close quarters combat. "It's not going to happen!"

Others aggressively push the concept that it will and does everyday, predators are everywhere, a lack of training will get you killed, I can do it and if you can't you are less than me.

It's less about acquiring a skill and decision set of experience, and more about ego. That tends to distort discussions rapidly. Especially on the internet.
 
I really don't get a lot of the anger and attitude that shows up when folks discuss training tools like this.

These things are all on a continuum as happygeek points out.

Of course the "average" gun owner could become a decent shooter with some marksmanship training.

With drills and training, the "average" shooter could become a proficient dynamic marksman, "shootist," or whatever else you might want to call someone proficient in gunhandling and shooting beyond the "square range."

With Force-on-Force and other advanced gunfight simulation skills development, a proficient "shootist" may become a skilled gunfighter.

(Understanding that all of these are training journeys, not destinations...)

Anyone at any point along the path will be BETTER, more competent, and more likely to succeed in any given scenario with more practice in each "step" and through continuing the journey as far as his/her time, skills, and assets will allow.

Does the average Joe on the street "need" force-on-force training? Who's to say? Does the average Joe on the street "NEED" a gun? Probably not today. Probably not tomorrow. Might there come a time when continuing the training journey as far as he is able be of value? It could.
 
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Sam1911 said:
I really don't get a lot of the anger and attitude that shows up when folks discuss training tools like this.

These things are all on a continuum as happygeek points out.

Of course the "average" gun owner could become a decent shooter with some marksmanship training.

With drills and training, the "average" shooter could become a proficient dynamic marksman, "shootist," or whatever else you might want to call someone proficient in gunhandling and shooting beyond the "square range."

With Force-on-Force and other advanced gunfight simulation skills development, a proficient "shootist" may become a skilled gunfighter.

(Understanding that all of these are training journeys, not destinations...)

Anyone at any point along the path will be BETTER, more competent, and more likely to succeed in any given scenario with more practice in each "setp" and through continuing the journey as far as his/her time, skills, and assets will allow.

Does the average Joe on the street "need" force-on-force training? Who's to say? Does the average Joe on the street "NEED" a gun? Probably not today. Probably not tomorrow. Might there come a time when continuing the training journey as far as he is able be of value? It could.
Excellent post.

If you become involved in a violent encounter, how good will you have to be to prevail? I have no idea. And you don't either. Unless you're clairvoyant, you have no way to know what your problem will be, if it ever happens. If you don't know what your problem will be, there's no way to predict what it's going to take to solve it.

And sure, sometimes well trained people lose. Would less training have produced a better result?

I think it may have been Edison who said, "The harder I worked, the luckier I got."
 
To me it seems illogical for someone wishing to prevail in a gunfight to not do some form of force on force training. It would be like training to swim by lying on the ground and practicing your form. It is not without merit, but is obviously far detached from the actual goal. Standing in a "square range" and target shooting, while not unrelated to gunfighting, simply does not encompass the full reality of it.

I still remember my first force on force training with airsoft. What a rude awakening that was! Ouch.
 
Do you need to carry a gun?
Do you need to carry with a round chambered?
Do you need to top off your mag after you chamber a round?
Do you need to carry a spare mag/reload?
Do you need to carry a .22 LR?
Do you need to carry a .380?
Do you need to carry a .45ACP?
Do you need to carry a .500 S&W?
Do you need to carry in a fast strongside OWB holster?
Do you need to carry in a "Thunderwear" rig?
Do you need to carry a white light?
Do you need to carry a knife?
Do you need to carry OC?

That stuff is very important, right? The first rule of a gunfight is "have a gun," right? So getting your kit together and tuned for success is critical.

But...

Do you need to familiarize yourself with the operation of your gun? Or can you figure out the details as the need arizes?

Do you need to practice basic marksmanship with your gun? Or will you trust that you can "learn by doing?"

Do you need to practice dynamic marksmanship with your gun -- so that you can shoot accurately while moving and using cover and sub-optimal positions, and while manipulating other objects/weapons/obstacles? Or does your inherant grace, hand-eye-coordination, and skill at interacting with the physical world give you the ability to accomplish those tasks without years of "dry runs?"

Do you need to practice living through scenarios where your gun may be the key to an interaction which is not with a cardboard target but with a human being, communicating with you, tricking you, threatening you, cajoling you, attempting to decieve you or distract you, disarm you, assault you, and/or kill you? Or are you good at going into very unusual, fast, and complex social situations -- cold -- and emerging without feeling the need to second-guess yourself and learn from your mistakes?

Regarding both sets of questions the answers aren't obvious. As happygeek pointed out from the beginning, American Rifleman is full of accounts of folks who were basically caught ALL BUT flatfooted -- with questionable equipment and even less sufficient training -- and who did o.k. I doubt A.R. would publish the list of folks for whom the cards turned up poorly.

The architect John Ruskin said, "It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money ... that is all. When you pay too little you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the things it was bought to do..."

Who ever says, "I was such a FOOL! I can't believe I brought a .45 when a .380 would have done just fine!" Or, "Oh, I'm such an idiot. What kind of moron brings a spare mag when I didn't even need it?"

The training argument seems the same way, to me. Unless the training course itself is bad or below your skills level (eggregiously wasting time and money), why NOT train as deeply and as often as your finances and time allow?

Having said that, I don't have nearly the training experience that I would like to. But I like to think that I am aware of at least some of my deficiencies in that area, and make my choices to NOT avail myself of further education weighing the value of those experiences against their costs and my (family's) other pressing needs.

I don't sit back and say, "well I read in American Rifleman where that grandmother in Arkansas killed an entire chapter of MS13 with a frying pan and a .22 short derringer while sitting on the commode in a mumu -- so I guess MY level of training is sufficient for the threat I'll face when MY time comes!"
 
I don't sit back and say, "well I read in American Rifleman where that grandmother in Arkansas killed an entire chapter of MS13 with a frying pan and a .22 short derringer while sitting on the commode in a mumu -- so I guess MY level of training is sufficient for the threat I'll face when MY time comes!"

LOL! Brilliant comedic talent there.
 
American Rifleman is full of accounts of folks who were basically caught ALL BUT flatfooted -- with questionable equipment and even less sufficient training -- and who did o.k.
I think we are assuming here. I've flipped through the last few issues of AR, and I don't see anywhere (or ever remember) a complete list of the training those involved have. Arguably, you are probably correct, but Susie Soccer Mom or Joe the Plumber could be CRG, Gunsite 250, or TR graduates. Or completed local courses. Or shoot IDPA twice a month. They just don't usually tell us.
I still remember my first force on force training with airsoft. What a rude awakening that was! Ouch.
And that is the crux of the matter. Time and again, students report not getting that perfect sight picture from their Weaver stance in FOF. Most end up point shooting one-handed while moving offline, hardly a Gunsite-approved approach to ending a conflict. Things happen in FOF that don't happen against stationary targets on a square range.

BTW, I have seen some 'novice' shooters do quite well on the FOF course.
 
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