Force On Force Controversy

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I think we are assuming here. I've flipped through the last few issues of AR, and I don't see anywhere (or ever remember) a complete list of the training those involved have. Arguably, you are probably correct, but Susie Soccer Mom or Joe the Plumber could be CRG, Gunsite 250, or TR graduates. Or completed local courses. Or shoot IDPA twice a month. They just don't usually tell us.

Of course, of course. Could be either way. But there are enough cues in the brief bits of context provided to make an educated guess that this often certainly isn't the case. Whatever they brought to the scenario -- however little or however much -- it was sufficient to prevail in the challenge they were faced with that day.

To the same point, A.R. also doesn't publish a list of anecdotes of cases where folks had "X" training, or no training, or were competitive shooters, or SWAT officers, or total gun novices, and were shot down anyway -- grave yard dead. I suppose we can make up our own mental lists of such out of the daily news papers. The one thing we CAN conclude from those, however, is that in every case the victim's toolset, skillset, and/or mindset was not adequate to the challenge they faced that day. Wherever they were on their journey wasn't quite far enough.
 
Despite having what I consider better than average training, it is entirely likely that I may mess up if it ever happens to me again.

I do like to try to stack the odds in my favor however.
 
Crawl

Walk

Run

Not too controversial, is it?

It's the progression from stage to stage that counts in the long run. Each stage of individual development offers skillsets to be built upon in more advanced and demanding stages. Do some people get 'stuck' at a given stage? Some do, for various reasons.

How good is 'good enough?' How good does any given private citizen type individual need to be? Want to be? How good can any given person afford to be, in time and money invested? How much of a training investment in time and money is "worth it?" Obviously, it's an individual choice.

I used to refer people to Clayton Cramer's blog a lot, because once upon a time it pretty well covered ALL the defensive firearms incidents that came to hand. Sometimes the good guys won. Sometimes it was a draw. Sometimes the good guys lost, too. But it used to be a reasonable approximation of what went on in The Real World of plain ordinary citizen gun self defense. Not the "good guys win all the time" of The Armed Citizen.

I wish I knew of a source that covered the whole waterfront of defensive firearms usage now. IMHO such coverage gives a lot more accurate view of what really goes on out there. And a lot more useful lessons to learn from as well.

lpl
 
Didn't require a teacher for me to figure out some practice routines that take previous life threatening encounters into account. I survived those without a gun, it can only be easier with one.

Nothing against being trained but it's not an option where I live and I don't go to the big city for anything other than the occasional family funeral.
 
How good is 'good enough?' How good does any given private citizen type individual need to be? Want to be? How good can any given person afford to be, in time and money invested? How much of a training investment in time and money is "worth it?" Obviously, it's an individual choice.

I used to refer people to Clayton Cramer's blog a lot, because once upon a time it pretty well covered ALL the defensive firearms incidents that came to hand. Sometimes the good guys won. Sometimes it was a draw. Sometimes the good guys lost, too. But it used to be a reasonable approximation of what went on in The Real World of plain ordinary citizen gun self defense. Not the "good guys win all the time" of The Armed Citizen.


Excellent points.

An aspect of defensive training often overlooked is the fact that proficiency is directly related to individual ability and training resources, including time.

Not everybody has the resources and time to achieve their ultimate potential, however, a core level of proficiency is not hard to develop and maintain, and combined with a proper mindset, can go a long way.

Not everyone has the potential to be a world class marathon runner, however, the individual that simply jogs on a regular basis stands a much better chance of winning a foot race than those that don't.

While lady luck will always have her say, as long as there is a commitment to developing and maintaining a core level of proficiency, an individual stands a reasonable chance of successfully applying those skills when they are needed.
 
smince said:
BTW, I have seen some 'novice' shooters do quite well on the FOF course.

You know what? They do. Almost always.


You know why? Because they're not focused on and wrapped around shooting the gun.

The value of FoF/Simunitions Training/Role Playing exercises is not in the act of shooting the gun.


I'll say that again so no one misses it.


The value of FoF/Simunitions Training/Role Playing exercises is not in the act of shooting the gun.


I can easily set up moving targets to shoot at. The one thing that makes Role Playing exercises valuable is what you can't do on a live-fire range - the interaction with people in the scenario.


Because a novice shooter's shooting skills aren't hard-wired yet, they're not available for him to draw upon on demand.

But his social skills are. So that's what they use. And the social skills, the ability to read the environment, situation, the ebb and flow of the interaction, those are the things that occur long before the gunfight begins, if it ever begins.

I'd wager all of us have pretty well-developed social skills by this point in our lives. They've served us pretty well to get us through the day. When a novice shooter enters FoF, that's all he's got on tap, and he'll use the most of it to get him through and out the other side as best he can.


After a fellow gets some training, and hard wires some skills, he begins to suffer in Role Playing scenarios because he's started looking for opportunities to shoot the gun, rather than opportunities to disengage or manipulate the scenario to his advantage through tact, guile, and social skills.


When that becomes a stumbling block, take away the guns. Give everyone red guns to run the scenarios. Having a gun-shaped piece of plastic that they can draw but doesn't go "bang" changes how scenarios develop.
 
I'm not sure if we are on the same page. I'm referring strictly to FOF drills, not an interactive FOF scenario (Man vs Man draw/move/shoot drills).
 
Ancedote:
I have a friend who was the bad guy in force on force training; he had the drop on 4 guys and got tackled by somebody who was 'dead', my friend got twisted as he fell and both his knees gave out. The tackler decided he wouldn't die just because he was shot in real life, so he felt justified in needlessly maiming someone else.

The idea of somebody wanting me to get hurt for realism, I'd be careful about trusting them.
 
Yep, I have always despised trying to 'train' on a static range, but even gun owners scream like women when you dare mention moving around or having a partner or a bunch of people w/ hot weapons moving about.

The nannystateism 'safety regardless of reality' club strikes again
 
After a fellow gets some training, and hard wires some skills, he begins to suffer in Role Playing scenarios because he's started looking for opportunities to shoot the gun, rather than opportunities to disengage or manipulate the scenario to his advantage through tact, guile, and social skills.

Do you think that transfers over to real life incidents?

I have several decades of experience hunting yet I remain as reluctant to harm humans as the day I got my first gun. That has always been and I hope will always be only a last resort. If somebody gets themselves shot by me it's because I was forced to do it, not because I was looking for an opportunity to shoot them.
 
Do you think that transfers over to real life incidents?

I have several decades of experience hunting yet I remain as reluctant to harm humans as the day I got my first gun. That has always been and I hope will always be only a last resort. If somebody gets themselves shot by me it's because I was forced to do it, not because I was looking for an opportunity to shoot them.

Not speaking for Ken, exactly, but there's a subtle difference I think, in what he said and what you got out of it.

It isn't that the shooter WANTS to shoot someone. It is that the stresses of the confrontation situation start the brain screaming, "This is going to end badly... this guy is threatening me ... he's going to hurt/kill me...etc.," and looking for a way to turn the tables. We all tend to reach for the tools we know are most successful to solve any problem, especially an emergency life-or-death kind of problem.

If the "victim" is unarmed, or not terribly familair with his/her sidearm, he may try very hard (perhaps to a fault) to use every social/conversational skill, trick, or tool he can think of to work his way out of the confrontation without resorting to a violent response. Sometimes this can work, sometimes, of course, it doesn't.

But the flip side is when someone is very used to the presense and (apparant) power of their gun, there can be a trend to skip right to the "most effective tool" to end a scary situation. That's where you see lawful carriers get into some trouble when they take an uncomfortable encounter (aggressive panhandling, an argument, a shoving match, or ???) and try to defuse it by drawing, brandishing, or even shooting the gun.

And, of course, that's not always legal and it's not always succssful at ending the situation in the "victim's" favor. This is what folks are indicating when you hear trainers and educated students use the phrase, "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Or, "the gun is just one tool in the tool box -- the LAST one you reach for."

Does that make some sense?
 
The CCW carrier needs H2H (and even knife) skills as well as gun skills.

I know we don't like the picture, but there is a very real possibility that you may need to get the attacker off of you to create enough distance to even draw your gun.

The more tools, the better.
 
The CCW carrier needs H2H (and even knife) skills as well as gun skills.

I know we don't like the picture, but there is a very real possibility that you may need to get the attacker off of you to create enough distance to even draw your gun.

The more tools, the better.

i agree with this, but i would add a non lethal option as well like oc or even a small collapsable baton. a friend of mine got one for his wife a month or so ago for when she goes walking. it opens to about 24-26 inches and when closed fits nicely in a pants pocket.

a non lethal option may just keep you from having to take a life, it also may give you time get to your firearm.
 
Less-lethal weapons are good for avoiding having to take the life of an aggressor, but I fail to see how they will help you draw your gun. If you don't have enough time/distance to draw your gun you won't be able to draw anything. Instead you need some basic unarmed combative skills to stun, at the very least, and create distance.
 
I would rather work on an attackers vitals/pressure points and try to break from contact than try to spray OC close to my own face. The stuff is indiscriminate and better used from a distance and is probably over rated.
Once some separation is achieved nothing says a gun must be fired if it is drawn and you are under no obligation to hold or pursue your attacker.
 
I would rather work on an attackers vitals/pressure points and try to break from contact than try to spray OC close to my own face. The stuff is indiscriminate and better used from a distance and is probably over rated.
Once some separation is achieved nothing says a gun must be fired if it is drawn and you are under no obligation to hold or pursue your attacker.

Good points, but I will say that OC isn't overrated. It does, however, have some caveats that some people choose to ignore.

1) You're right, it doesn't discriminate.

2) It is less effective on those who are chemically impaired and / or those who know what to expect.

3) It is not instantly capacitating. You CAN fight through it (as anyone who has been sprayed as part of POST training or similar can tell you).

All that said, it is still a tool that can be useful.

-Mark
 
By over rated I am saying that it has been presented by some as all they need to successfully stop an attack and I think it gives a false sense of security.
It might sell a lot of product but there is no free pass.
 
Less-lethal weapons are good for avoiding having to take the life of an aggressor, but I fail to see how they will help you draw your gun. If you don't have enough time/distance to draw your gun you won't be able to draw anything.

Last night in class we were practicing a variation on the Tuller Drill, and what was working well was to step into the knife attack and block the strong-arm shoulder and upper arm, which controls the knife a bit, then use the attacker's momentum to takedown. From here, advanced students performed a knife disarm (and use it to finish attacker) and others, especially if losing contact with the attacker, stepped back to draw from CC.

There are many ways a baton or OC spray could be used to purchase time to draw. It would be best, of course, if they made drawing (and firing) unnecessary.
 
Last night in class we were practicing a variation on the Tuller Drill, and what was working well was to step into the knife attack and block the strong-arm shoulder and upper arm, which controls the knife a bit, then use the attacker's momentum to takedown. From here, advanced students performed a knife disarm (and use it to finish attacker) and others, especially if losing contact with the attacker, stepped back to draw from CC.
What do you do if you end up in a tangle with the BG on top?
 
That is the best thought out selling point of realistic training and a great post. I agree cardboard don't shoot back but a lot of people keep quoting response times from a set time scenerio with someone starting with buzzer. That is not natural reaction time which only comes from training and muscle memory.
 
Does that make some sense?

Sure does.

I've have had a few people verbally accost me while carrying. I think I conduct myself the same as without a gun. That is I don't argue back and I let them burn off the heat while standing my ground. Only thing I perceive different when carrying is that I study them more closely for the possible introduction of a weapon.

Had some nutcase blame me for the high cost of fuel back when it was almost $5 a gallon. He followed me into the gas station after I had passed him a couple miles back up the road. He gave me a fairly furious rant as I began pumping my gas. Didn't faze me much until he suddenly stopped the tongue lashing and made for the rear of his vehicle to open his trunk :eek:

I shut my pump down fast and by the time I made it to the door to pay (and involve witnesses) he was already tossing stuff around like mad back there. I was making bets with myself if he would come up with a shotgun or a rifle. But still not too worried since the new view angle gave me a good opportunity to see any such weapon before I was in his sights. I held the door open for a few seconds watching the guy. He comes up with a bag full of empties to cash in for the deposit. Quite the relief and real funny stuff!
 
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