Four-Year-Old Girl Shoots Herself at Sam's Club

Status
Not open for further replies.
Training/education works with some, not others. I knew very well never to touch my father's guns without his permission when I was little. He said if I did I'd have the beating of my life with his belt, and I believed him. But others are not so easily deterred, especially with less and less emphasis on discipline these days...so it is the duty of every gun owner with children to both educate their children and ensure they aren't allowed to slip up...that doesn't mean I wouldn't have loaded guns in my home, but any that were loaded would be in my holster or on my back...
 
Training is important, but it doesn't shift the responsibility from the adult to the child! Especially one that young.
 
Eric F: So many ignorant comments on this thread. I can clearly see that many do not have children. At 4 the child can barlely control themselves. Low impuls control and they are all naturaly curious. The child is not to blame here. The Grandparent is to blame. As far as keeping an eye on your kids. The child was in a cart and your shopping tell me you never turn your head to look at somthing for a minute or leave the cart a few feet behind to grab a few items. The womans purse should have never been left in the childs reach.
100%
I might be a bit off on this but I remember reading a child is not counsciously aware of their actions until 6 years.

As a parent of 4 kids now in their teens, I find this hard to believe. My kids knew the difference between right and wrong on many things long before 6. Now, knowing the ramifications of choosing to do wrong? That takes a lifetime - most adults only get it right about half the time.
 
Another sad case when an adult makes a stupid decision and someone else pays the price. A child that was as unattended as this one was headed for some kind of disaster, it just happened to come from grandma's gun first.

Hopefully the little girl recovers and isn't horribly scarred mentally or physically by it.
 
I really can't imagine a worse way to carry a gun than in a purse.

I might make an exception for purses made with a compartment specifically for guns and with a reinforced strap, but to toss a gun in with all the other junk and subject to being left behind or lost (or played with by a toddler!) is insane.

A purse is always a bad way to carry a firearm, period, and not just in this situation.

If a woman finds herself attacked or robbed guess what one of the first things targeted is likely to be? Her purse. A struggle over an external container that contains your firearm does not leave it available for use.
Even if not taken, the purse is likely to be a focus of attention for a would be robber.
An attack can be violent, with someone falling, pushed, grabbed etc with a struggle that seperates a woman from her purse, or the purse not in a position that facilitates drawing before the attack continues.
A firearm carried for defense should be in a position that after some tumbling around or fending off an attacker with both hands it can be drawn.

Allowing a child, especialy one not introduced to firearms or that young to be around a loaded firearm and have access to it is a whole seperate issue.

I hope the child recovers and the actions are blamed, not the tool. You wouldn't leave a child with sharp objects either, it doesn't mean knives are bad.
 
We have two kids, and four Grandkids, my carry gun is in a holster, or next to me at night, when any little kids were about (youngest now 15 YOA) the firearms were not assessable to them.

Even though Grandma was to blame, you have to feel for her, and what she is going through. We can only hope the little one pulls through.
 
You can bet the blame will fall on anything but the grandmother's negligence and the parents' failure to teach the child not to go through the belongings of others, and to not touch firearms.
 
My child is two and has been taught that knifes, the stove and electical sockets are not to play with. She also knows that Mom is going to catch her if she gets into something she is not supposed to.

Selena

Selena, that is great. I bet your kids have also been taught many things. Have they ever disobeyed any of their lessons? Of course they have. They are kids. That is why the responsibility for them is with the parent or guardian. You can teach little kids many things, but that does not mean they will adhere to all of them 100%.
 
My daughter is 13, and I still keep my firearms locked in a 1-ton vault. If any firearms are out, they are with me, or on my person. My point is that we can teach them what we will, but in the end, do we really want to trust a child to listen to their parent?
 
+1 On prayers for the family.

Grandma (who is a magistrate) should know a lot better than to keep her weapon in an unattended purse, especially when she has care of her granddaughter. She should lose her CWP for this. (And yes, I have one myself!) You can't fix stupid and that was stupid.
 
I have 2 small kids, 2 and 5. They are taught not touch things they are not supposed to, including firearms, but guess what, my 2 year old still goes through my wife's purse whenever he can get a hold of it..he even gets a chair to get to it from top of the kitchen counter. I still find my 5 year old sneaking into the cookie jar from the pantry when he KNOWS he's not supposed to. Anyone who thinks that the 4 year-old should've been taught not to get into the gun that was SITTING RIGHT NEXT TO HER as if that was the solution to this problem is out of touch with reality and is lacking insight.

Bottom line is, you can teach your kids all you want, but they'll still find a way to misbehave...don't we all remember teenage years? and we knew what was right and wrong, but we still did things, didn't we? And I surely hope nobody expects a FOUR years old to "not go through the purse and pull the trigger because I told you so"....that's ludicrous.

If you REALLY don't want them to touch it, you keep it away from them, LOCKED-UP. All of my firearms are locked up, and my kids will not get into them unless they learn how to use an acetylene torch. If they occasionally sneak into a cookie jar, it's fine....it's not fine with loaded firearms, the responsibility rests on US, not the child.

I don't care if the grandmother feels bad, she should, and she should be prosectued for negligence, and she should have her CCW taken away....those who are not responsible enough to have control over the weapon should not be carrying one. Would you want this person shooting a firearm in public, I wouldn't....she'll end up harming an innocent bystander (which she did) or lose the weapon to a bad guy or random person (which she did) and end up harming an innocent person (which unfortunately happened).
 
I read on some major news website that walmart was reconsidering allowing ccw's because of this incident. But for the life that is in me I can't find it now. Did anyone else see this? Did they shorten the story so as not to include this part.
 
I'm so sorry that this happened. The little girl's recovery will make it much better.

That being said, I have never thought that having a weapon that is not in your immediate control is a bad idea. Grandma should have had a better, secured area in her purse for that weapon or had it one or two steps from being shot - i.e., chamber empty &/or safety on &/or de-cocked. These steps certainly don't absolutely stop a resourceful tot for figuring it out but it would sure as hell have given grandma or one of the "several witnesses" time to stop what they were seeing. If the gun was an autoloader (w/the chamber empty), the 4 year old would have had a near impossible task of operating the slide.
 
Quote:
My 2yo can pull the trigger on a cap pistol that is heavier than the trigger on DH's S&W M&P. Even more, he can cock the hammer.

He can't rack the slide on the airsoft pistol I use for dry-fire practice in the living room, but he knows that he needs to if it is going to go, "click".

May we assume the real guns are locked up, or otherwise secured, when not under your immediate control?

Most definitely!

Locked up, semi-concealed, and behind a baby gate -- in a room that is occupied by an adult for at least 80% of the toddler's waking hours.

And, of course, we don't leave him unattended.

He's number 4 so we've had plenty of experience in out-thinking bright children.

And yet, I cannot 100% rule out the possibility of one of our kids' getting into trouble. The teens are responsible enough and well-trained enough to have their own keys to the gun storage. The toddler is pretty well-guarded.

But the 8yo knows where the power tools are kept so if he were sufficiently determined he might achieve access to his Crickett. Thus I used this incident to reinforce his safety training and to underscore the fact that guns are dangerous.

We do our best and that's all we can do. BUT, IMO, the firearms community should use this incident to reinforce the idea that off-body carry is NOT our best where safety is concerned and that it should never be used when the gun's owner cannot maintain constant, no-exceptions, direct, hand-on control of the purse/briefcase/dayplanner/etc.
 
BUT, IMO, the firearms community should use this incident to reinforce the idea that off-body carry is NOT our best where safety is concerned and that it should never be used when the gun's owner cannot maintain constant, no-exceptions, direct, hand-on control of the purse/briefcase/dayplanner/etc.

I totally agree.
 
Even if the little girl had been taught something about firearm safety, she's still 4.
wise words from cheese as well as ericf my kid started moms car at 18 months and tried to get it in gear

Yep.

My experience as a parent includes a not-yet-2yo dragging a toy box up to a baby gate so he could reach around a doorframe to get a bottle of Sudafed off a counter. Then he retreated under the dining table and hid under the tablecloth to defeat the push-and-turn safety cap. This all occurred during the 5 minutes that I had gated him out of the kitchen so that he wouldn't get burned while I put dinner into the oven.

One can never overestimate the things kids might do.

They do things they know very well that they aren't supposed to do because either their impulses are stronger than their self-control or they are deliberately testing the rules to see who is in charge.
 
Instead of generalizing to such a great extent it seems worth noting a couple of major points about this incident that nobody else seems to think even worth noticing.

First, with her CWP the grandmother of this particular four-year-old can legally carry a concealed weapon anywhere in the State of South Carolina. She is the Hon. Donna Hutto Williamson, Magistrate for Aiken County, SC. I feel for her. She evidently is a well-respected person and not habitually irresponsible or negligent.

And according to South Carolina law:

SECTION 23-31-240. Persons allowed to carry concealed weapon while on duty.

Notwithstanding any other provision contained in this article, the following persons who possess a valid permit pursuant to this article may carry a concealable weapon anywhere within this State, when carrying out the duties of their office:

(1) active Supreme Court justices;

(2) active judges of the court of appeals;

(3) active circuit court judges;

(4) active family court judges;

(5) active masters-in-equity;

(6) active probate court judges;

(7) active magistrates;

(8) active municipal court judges;

(9) active federal judges;

(10) active administrative law judges;

(11) active solicitors and assistant solicitors; and

(12) active workers' compensation commissioners.

So even were Sam's Club to prohibit CWP holders from carrying on its premises, Magistrate Williamson she could still do so if she were in some way "on duty." I'm not interested in how she might argue it if caught while shopping in Sam's Club again. Perhaps she could use the same argument used by uniformed police officers in donut shops. It's a side issue, not really relevant to what's happening. What might be relevant is that such violations often are decided in Magistrate's Court.

Second, another news story in the same newspaper on the same day involves another injured 4-year-old girl in the same area. This little girl was found locked inside a child-care center's bus for about 3-1/2 hours during a severe heat wave. Her screams went unnoticed until a nearby wastewater treatment worker heard them and informed the child-care center.

Same age, same sex, same day, and the same newspaper: the Columbia State. But the little girl who shot herself because of her grandmother's inattention made front page news and the little girl who was almost roasted because of a day-care center's inattention was put on the back pages.

I'm not excusing the grandmother nor do I think for a moment that she excuses herself, and I'm not advocating tolerance for carelessness or disregard for the potential dangers of firearms.

Child-care centers are dangerous too, though, and so are buses: they need careful supervision and rethinking, especially where our precious children are concerned. This particular child-care facility had nine deficiencies in a December inspection by the state's Department of Social Services.

If our society is indeed seriously concerned for our children's welfare, perhaps there should be a Zero Tolerance policy for child-care centers. Maybe they should be closed after even one reported deficiency. It's the surest way to protect our children against being harmed by day-care centers. Schools too: it might be worth considering Zero Tolerance policies for them. It's surely not excessive to consider immediately closing any school that is the scene of any violent incident or negligence. Should society tolerate schools in which the administration and teachers don't protect the children with whose care they are charged? Close any that have neglected that duty the very first time they do. Academically too: why tolerate a school that cannot educate all children it enrolls? One failing grade and the school should be closed.

Incidents like these one are opportunities for opportunists of all kinds to score points. The 4-year-old in the first sad incident is now the occasion for those who don't want other people to own or carry defensive firearms to score lots of points.

Peter Hamm of the Brady Campaign said, "'The best way to make sure that kids don’t get injured with a firearm is not to have a firearm around,” he said. “If you’re going to have a gun around a kid, you should have a trigger lock on it so you can’t operate the thing.'"

With one modification in wording, Mr. Hamm has a good point. The best way to keep kids absolutely safe from specific guns is to get rid of those specific guns. The next best way is to make them inoperable. Many gun owners in this forum seem to prefer having inoperable guns. Who can argue that they shouldn't.

It probably is possible to impose such absolutist requirements on everybody in the United States. It's been done elsewhere in the world so it can be done here too, especially if increasingly significant numbers of gun owners favor the approach.

The only other alternatives seem to be trusting people to make judgments about their own lives and sympathetic understanding when bad things happen to good people. They've always been hard to do. I wonder if they're just impossible today.
 
The negligent parents didn't teach their kid to avoid touching guns.

Other than that, this isn't news. It's propaganda against those "evil guns".

Regarding "precious" children: BARF! We've created a nanny state around "precious" children. Children are LESS precious than an adult; they dependent and only "contribute" to society in the future sense.

I say screw the kids; have more sex if the ones you have are too stupid to listen to your warnings and kill themselves.
 
Ok, let me get this straight. A woman leaves a gun where a child can play with it? Loaded or not, what did anyone think would happen? Very sad story and I hope the little girl will be ok.
 
Gun Safety

:banghead:This is just another example of peoples stupidy. You dont keep a loaded gun around little children if you do there is somthing wrong with you. I never do if i have some one coming over and they have a little kid I pick up all the pistols through out the house and lock them up in my bed room. That why I only have access to them. But the major question is when will people learn not to leave guns with children with out any adult supervision. My old man kept all of his guns in the garage when I was a child. Wasn't till I was 10 years old he brought them in the house. But there was a constint supervision if i was going to play with them. We know leaving kids alone with rat poison is just plain STUPID so when will we learn this about guns. When will the school system take the NRA programs needed to teach children about gun safety and what to do if the find a gun.

THE NRA IS GREAT:)
 
Reports on the radio indicate that the girl may be OK. She's in critical but stable condition.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top