Friend wants a gun but cant buy one due to being a traveler, need advise..

[dewage83]

I would be careful. My firearms would not be on the line for someone elses gun purchase. so that said be careful what ever you do in this situation. I have to admit at 3 posts I am a little suspicious too. Especially since he hasnt posted again. But I would like to say. WELCOME TO HIGH ROAD. since noone has already said that, and if you ask a boarderline illegal question you will not get too many helpful responses (even if you dont know its illegal- asked a stupid question before lol) I would probably buy a gun and "realize" it was a piece after i shot it a couple times.... and i found out he legal can own a firearm!

....... or just bring him to the range with you. noone goes to jail that way

 

[PinoyInFL]

I am a green card holder and I go through this every time. Yes you have to show proof of residence by showing a utility bill, a bank statement or a credit card statement. It would be easier if your friend has a mailing address which he can use for his drivers' license, bank statments, credit cards, cell phone statements, etc. Perhaps he can make this arrangement with a friend or relative. Once he goes through 3 billing cycles, he can buy the firearm himself.

 

[pete f]

Does he have pay stubs? from a Colorado company to him? or a cell phone bill? it does not have to gas or electric, just something that shows he lives there.

Try a smaller dealer besides SW, there maybe another dealer who looks at the DL and goes good to go.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If that 18 year old you bought that gun for shoots someone, and they ask him where he got the gun, and he says "I bought it from NavyLT. He bought it from the gun store for me," they are going to come talk to you.

Right, that's why it would be someone you would absolutely trust. There are <21 year old guys that work for me, some I would trust, some I wouldn't to gift a handgun to. Another point is this, if you go the "gift" route, one of the reason's ATF won't pursue that in everyday perfectly legal situations is that if the person was legally eligible to receive that firearm from a private person and did nothing illegal with that firearm, then there is no motive for the person giving the gift to provide that firearm as anything other than a gift.

 

[earl_je]

Wow... Some of the responses are making me feel like I'm a felon. Thanks for the welcome guys.
I know handgun ownership is a very touchy, sometimes controversial subject. THAT'S why I was seeking for some advise from the more experienced crowd. Has anyone ever wondered why I even asked about the subject? ...umm, coz I dont want to break the law! (I'm not asking how to break the law, if that even makes sense... duh.)

Anyway, I called him a little bit ago and told him to use his paystubs instead since they all show CO addresses. That should hopefully work. And no, cellphone bills wont work as we were told.

I should very well just stop this issue right here but I'm in a typing mood tonight so here goes:

waterhouse: your post #17 mentioned about a gift excemption, how would you prove in court (assuming a simple gun purchase would get that far) that you purposefully gave the handgun as a gift with no intention to break the law? Your other reply mentioned a signed gift receipt would most likely not work.

Pat-inCO: I hate when people who are new to the forums pretend as if they've been here forever, know everything, and act as if they own the place. Just as what TX1911fan said, maybe YOU should get lost?

Sniper X: Sounds like you have had plenty of experience selling guns. If I did sell one of my handguns to another person, do I need a bid of sale of some sort to prove I no longer own the gun? (this question was the basic premise in the original question I first posted)

NavyLT: You seriously went through all that trouble of calling ATF? I salute you man. I sincerely thank you for doing that and hope more members in THR are like you.

treo: Being suspicious is fine, but instantly judging someone of trolling around is completely different. Loosen up a bit, not all people have bad intentions. I had a legitimate question and you just jumped right at me.

dewage83: Unfortunately, I dont have the luxury of spending all day reading and replying to posts here in the forums. I have a fulltime job treating patients all day as a physical therapist and yes, I travel also. That same friend did go with me to the shooting range, that's why he got interested in purchasing a handgun for himself.



Lots of lessons learned here. Makes this hobby even more interesting.

 

[paintballdude902]

my parents have a property management company and have alot of rns renting from them

tell him to get a copy of the bills from his work/land lord

 

[Rayden]

I am going through sort of the same thing as your friend, except that I just received my Green Card and it seems like the ATF/FBI/USCIS restart the clock of my residency at the effective date of my card, which was 4/4/2008. So now the response of my 4473 application was that the earliest I can purchase my next firearm, it will be 7/4/2008 (3 months later) ... never mind that I practically have been living here for more than half my life legally

I wonder if the USCIS would reset my start date back to when I last physically left and re-enter the country, which was last millennium (Nov 1999) .....

 

[RDak]

Earl: FWIW, I would NEVER buy a firearm with the intent of really buying it for someone else.

 

[waterhouse]

waterhouse: your post #17 mentioned about a gift excemption, how would you prove in court (assuming a simple gun purchase would get that far) that you purposefully gave the handgun as a gift with no intention to break the law? Your other reply mentioned a signed gift receipt would most likely not work.

It is all about intent. I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt. I have spoken with the ATF about this. The gift exception allows people to buy guns strictly as gifts without getting in trouble. A husband can walk into a gun store with the intention of buying a gun for his wife (not for himself) as an anniversary present, or a sister can go in and buy a gun for her younger sister because there is a sketchy guy that has been hanging around.

In both cases, a person bought a gun from a gun store, filled out a 4473, and they knew that they were not going to be the actual owner, which would normally be a crime, but since the gun was strictly as a gift there is no problem with what they did. Their intent, when they signed the form, was to gift the gun, with nothing given in payment, to a 3rd party.

The ATF agents I have spoken to gave me a different story than what LavyLT got . . . that is why I advised him to get that information in writing before staking anything on it. I was told that the gun must be a 100% gift . . . no trickery with $500 oranges or pencils being sold on the side.

Here is one of the examples I was given: If you and Aunt Sally exchange Christmas gifts every year, and one year you go buy her a gun and hand it to her, and she gives you a check for $25 and tells you Merry Christmas, you guys just exchanged gifts. No problem. If Aunt Sally asks you to buy her a gun for Christmas, and you buy her a gun, and she hands you a check for $475 to pay for the gun (with a little something extra for Christmas), then the gun wasn't actually a gift. She paid you for it.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that there is no magical loophole. If you buy it with the intention of giving it as a gift, you are not breaking the law. As NavyLT brought up, if you buy it with the intention of keeping it, and 10 minutes later someone offers you more money for it, you are not breaking the law (at least not any law concerning the 4473; that guy may be an ATF agent trying to get you for making a profit without a dealer's license . . . be careful if this ever happens.) If you go in and buy it "for yourself" and you go home and sell it to your friend, which is what you were planning all along, then you have broken the law.

Any gun in your collection that you bought with the intent of keeping as yours, you are free to sell to your friend. As Treo mentioned, any gun in any private collection in your state may be purchased by your friend. You may buy a gun from a private collection and then have your friend pay you for it. But as soon as you go into a dealer with the intent of getting a gun for your friend, and you fill out and sign the 4473, that gun either needs to be a true gift or you are breaking the law.

 

[NavyLCDR]

earl_je - thanks for the kind words. Apparantly some people on this forum (NOT in this thread!) don't like me posting what I find when I do research, especially if I don't know to go somewhere else in a completed unrelated section of the law to find a paperwork requirement. Anyway - that all aside.

The ATF agent was just being straight up honest with me. When I spoke with him, I used the example of a kid works for me in the military who is 19, wants to get a handgun, but can't from a dealer. It is a technical breaking of the law for me to buy the gun for him from a dealer. It is not a breaking of the intent of the law. The intent is to keep persons not eligible to own firearms from being provided with them. Would the ATF prosecute me for buying a gun for the 19 year old who is elegible to legally purchase it from me? Probably not, but they could, by the letter of the law.

To be technically correct by the law, I would have to gift him the gun and we would both have to be in rock solid agreement the gun was a gift. Believe it or not, there is still some common sense in this country. Prosecuters are not going to break peoples' doors down over one such firearm transaction, UNLESS your buddy goes out and uses the gun in a crime or your buddy is illegal to possess the firearm, or you do it repeatedly. The gift stipulation simply gives the prosecutor one more thing they must disprove if, in a million to one chance, something does come up.

Keep in mind also, this is Washington state here, where no record of private sales are required. In other states where private sales, gifts or transfers require a permit, or be reported, then an ATF agent in that state might have an entirely different opinion.

 

[doc2rn]

They need his Drivers Liscence #1, His work visa/ Green card #2, and a copy of his contract with work stating they will provide residence or agreement with rental property #3. Those are the 3 things he needs, as a legal working immigrant under visa he is elligible to buy his own firearm. Don't buy it for him as that will make bring a world of problems in your direction PDQ. Keep in mind that if he is under 21 and gets caught with a handgun you could be charged also.