Full-auto .22s- anyone have one?

[natedog]

I've heard of the American 180 sub-gun- has a fire rate of like 1000RPM and has 50,100, and 250 round drum magazines for it. Are there any full auto 10-22 conversions around? What is the average price? Also, isn't there a .22 conversion for Uzis and AR-15s? Do they run on full-auto? Finally, does anyone own one of these bad boys?

 

[Turkish]

I don't own, but Ive seen a 180 in action. Seems fun in theory but it jammed too much to be worthwhile.

 

[sumpnz]

Don't forget about the whole Class III crap with a full auto, even if it's "just a .22."

I know I've seen kits to make twin barrel gatling guns from 10/22s that had a hand crank for firing. Seen similar set ups for AK-47 pattern guns too. Probably got you 4 or 8 shots per revolution. That at least would not require an NFA stamp since it is not technically full auto.

 

[Richochet]

Since the statute of limitations expired on this long ago, I can tell you that in my young, dumb college days I got the bright idea to turn my Ruger .22 auto pistol into a machine pistol. After disassembling the gun, I realized the process was childishly simple...just file down the disconnect lever so it isn't tripped each time the bolt blows back.

What followed afterwards I wasn't quite ready for. The first few times I tried to fire the gun it would rip off several rounds and jam because it was firing before locking up and blowing the head off the .22 cases. And it was blowing my extractor away when it did it.

I kept ordering new extractors from Ruger and wondering how long it would be before they figured out my antics. But as luck would have it I finally found a .22 ammunition that would actually feed and keep firing in the pistol. Federal High Velocity. They worked like a charm and the brass was so thick or tough that the cases only bulged slightly rather than seperate.

NOW I had a working machine pistol. Except it wasn't what I expected at all. I fired the gun at night and it was just one big flash of fire...and that was the end of the whole clip of ammo.

The gun didn't go ratatatatatatat. It just went BAAANG....and that was a whole clip of ammo. No audible separation of individual rounds.

Whenever I fired it, I held the pistol firmly and pulled the trigger. The next thing I knew my hand would be pointing straight up and the pistol locked open, out of ammo. All from a lowly 22????

Finally, I placed a 3 x 6' sheet of rusted tin in front of me and stepped back about 10 feet. Aiming at the bottom of the sheet, I pulled the trigger. Instantly the gun was pointed in the sky and out of ammo.

I checked the sheet metal and found TWO bullet holes in it. EIGHT rounds had missed and likely gone over it.

Conclusion, the conversion was less than worthless. I would have been better served to have a single shot derringer.

My next order to Ruger was for a new disconnect lever and I restored my fine Ruger pistol to the way it was designed.

Converting almost any firearm to full auto is both dangerous and foolish. With high power arms, it can be deadly dangerous.

It might make an interesting tale but it's not a place I want to go again.

 

[sumpnz]

Well, basicaly what you were doing was making the gun slam fire. A true full auto would allow you to fire a burst of a few rounds, or the whole magazine rather than just keep going until it was empty regarless of what you wanted to do. Making any gun slam fire is dangerous, but with a true full auto fire control system it certainly can be a safe thing to do. It just is pretty hard to get all the parts to do so legally.

Also, a .22 rifle would be much easier to control than a pistol. It weighs more, and with the rifle stock you have more mechanical advantage to counteract the recoil forces.

Personally, I kinda like the idea of the hand crank twin barrel gatling gun. No NFA violations to worry about, and it's very controllable both in terms of controlling the amount of rounds fired and dealing with the recoil.

 

[jobu07]

Well, I can say from experience that they are fun. I've fired a few different full auot 10/22's. But, they were jam'omatics. Great fun when they operated correctly though. Fully suppressed though... Might the subsonic ammo had something to do with it? Impressivly quiet though.

 

[Destructo6]

The gun didn't go ratatatatatatat. It just went BAAANG....and that was a whole clip of ammo. No audible separation of individual rounds.

A buddy of mine had a Ruger Mk2 stolen and when it was recovered and returned to him, he discovered that such a conversion was performed on his. He likened it to a "zip" and the bolt was locked back. It went back to Ruger, along with a letter from the police, for repair.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

I have a Ciener M16 .22LR conversion for my M16A1. It's essentially the same as the AR conversion but with some extra mass added to the bolt. Works great. I've been thinking of getting a dedicated .22 upper for it.

 

[WhiteKnight]

So what exactly are the mechanical differences in a legal full-auto conversion (proper) vs. an illegal full-auto conversion (improvised)?

I don't see how a professional job (legal or not) would be anything different than what you two fellows have already mentioned.

 

[Zak Smith]

A friend of mine (a class III dealer) has a full-auto Ceiner kit in one of his M16's. It has a short 7 or 9" barrel and a big suppressor on it. The cylic rate is very high.

The biggest problem is that the bullets coat the inside of the "can" with lead in no time.

-z

 

[Harry Tuttle]

gulf coast armory had some videos of a american 180 buzzing down cement blocks

it looks like the website is gone
http://www.gulfcoastarmory.com/

heres the semi auto:
http://www.american180.com/

The American SAR 180/275 is the Semi-Automatic version of the American 180 submachine gun. It is available on a custom order basis from E&L Manufacturing, Inc. The suggested retail price is $995.

 

[sumpnz]

So what exactly are the mechanical differences in a legal full-auto conversion (proper) vs. an illegal full-auto conversion (improvised)?

The difference is that what the other guys described causes the gun keep firing until it's out of ammo no matter if you release the trigger or not. In a real full auto when you pull the trigger it starts firing, but stops as soon as the trigger is released even if there's still ammo in the mag. The true full autos also usually have some way to limit or regulate the cyclic rate to a more sane level whereas in the cases above the gun basically fired just as fast as the bolt could cycle. In Richochet's case it was actually firing even faster as the gun would actually fire the round before it was completly in battery - that is what cause the problem with bulged and seperated cases.

 

[Kenneth Lew]

So what exactly are the mechanical differences in a legal full-auto conversion (proper) vs. an illegal full-auto conversion (improvised)?

I don't see how a professional job (legal or not) would be anything different than what you two fellows have already mentioned.

The difference between a professional legal conversion and the bubba conversions (slam fire) is the fact that you risk blowing up the gun in your face. I do not think it is advisible to discuss such conversions on the internet, but in simple terms the hammer rides the bolt carrier/slide and ignites the round before it fully seats in the chamber. Messing with the timing on a closed-bolt centerfire firearm is stupid.

Kenneth Lew

 

[Kenneth Lew]

I've heard of the American 180 sub-gun- has a fire rate of like 1000RPM and has 50,100, and 250 round drum magazines for it.

Correction:
The firearm has a 165, 220, 275 rd. drum magazines.
ROF is 1,500 rpm depending upon ammunition.

Are there any full auto 10-22 conversions around?

Yes, mostly by Norell.

What is the average price?

The last asking price was around $6,000 with a deviation of $1,500+/-.

Also, isn't there a .22 conversion for Uzis and AR-15s?

Yes for both.

Do they run on full-auto?

If meant for full-auto, it will go full-auto.

Kenneth Lew

 

[Jim K]

"So what exactly are the mechanical differences in a legal full-auto conversion (proper) vs. an illegal full-auto conversion (improvised)?

I don't see how a professional job (legal or not) would be anything different than what you two fellows have already mentioned."

and

"The difference between a professional legal conversion and the bubba conversions (slam fire) is the fact that you risk blowing up the gun in your face. I do not think it is advisible to discuss such conversions on the internet..." This statement is not necessarily true, but the point is moot, since no legal conversions have been possible since 1986.

Not all illegal conversions are done by just filing the sear and letting the hammer follow down. Those conversions are both unreliable and uncontrollable. The fact is that many illegal conversions are well done and reliable. Many illegal conversions of the AR-15 were done with drop-in auto sears or lightning links that work, although some conversions will not allow semi-auto fire. Many M2 carbine conversions were done with GI parts and work, though a lot of cheap parts that would not hold up were sold at gun shows.

Slam fire will certainly work for full auto fire, which is why BATFE will not approve manufacture of open bolt semi-autos since simple removal of the disconnector will allow full auto fire. Almost all pistol caliber SMG's fire from an open bolt and are essentially "slam fire", and in those that are selective fire, the only difference is that they have a disconnector for semi auto fire.

When it comes to high power rifle cartridges, on the other hand, closed bolt firing is the norm. Even those rifles, like the military BAR, that fire from an open bolt cannot fire unless the bolt is fully locked, so they are not "slam fire". Most selective fire rifles, like the M2 carbine, M14, FAL, AK, etc., fire from a closed bolt in either mode.

Jim

 

[444]

Several friends of mine own American 180s.
When I have been with them, they had no problems with malfunctions.
At our local machine gun matches usually at least one person shoots an American 180. One of the better shooters there uses one. It is kind of interesting to score her targets. Using my Sten, I am happy to get the required two rounds in the A-Zone. She, on the other hand usually has a solid group of about 4" of maybe 10 rounds on each target.

Years ago I fired a Thompson in .22LR which did have issues with malfunctions although it wasn't all that bad. I would have enjoyed owning it.

 

[atek3]

If we didn't have NFA I'd like a 22 cal chain gun. That way misfires wouldn't matter, the chain-driven bolt would simply toss the dud round and keep going. I'd have to have a really good extractor, though.

atek3

 

[MiniZ]

I don't own one, but I have spent a considerable amount of trigger time behind a M16 with a .22 conversion kit. That was arguably the funnest(and most cost effective) full auto I ever shot.

 

[geojap]

A guy next to me at the range had an .22 full auto AR conversion. It jammed constantly. His AR in .223 was very nice and seemed to work very well.

 

[Dan Forrester]

Zak Smith:

The biggest problem is that the bullets coat the inside of the "can" with lead in no time.

Could you please explain this in a little more detail.

How many rounds is no time?

How thick is this coating?

How do you remove the coating?

I have a sealed Gemtech .22lr suppressor. The life span of the suppressor should be close to indefinite according to Phillip Dater. After hundreds of thousands of rounds a coating of lead would eventually cover the first baffle and begin to degrade performance slightly. I have about 5,000 through mine so far, and the first baffle is blackened from the muzzle blast but there is no measurable coating developing.

Just so that you guys don’t think I’ve hijacked the thread heres a video of my NFA dealer firing an American 180 with the big drum on top.

http://www.onlythebestfirearms.com/videolinks.html

It’s the second one down.

Thanks, Dan

 

[WhiteKnight]

I believe you can simply spray a heckuva lot of Breakfree into the can and let it sit for a little while then pour out all the nastiness.

 

[MeekandMild]

According to my Form 4, my Vector Uzi is registered as legal in .22, .45 or 9mm. My internal debate on whether to get a .22 conversion kit has always ended up as "no" due to the fact that, while IMI 20, 25 and 32 round magazines are relatively cheap on the surplus market, anything over a ten round .22 Uzi mag is nearly impossible to obtain. Maybe after the AWB sunsets I'll convert my eeevvviiiillll 9mm into a politically correct .22?

So what exactly are the mechanical differences in a legal full-auto conversion (proper) vs. an illegal full-auto conversion (improvised)?

The Vector Uzi has a stamp on the side listing the legal calibers and the Federal form 4 has them listed. The mechanical difference is that you have drop in parts you buy from the manufacturer, but a Semiautomatic Uzi and an UZI SMG are entirely different guns with only cosmetic similarities. Obviously the drop in parts will not fit a semi automatic. I don't know about other MGs.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

The Form 4 does not have to list the calibers a machinegun is allowed to shoot. You can have as many caliber conversions as you want. The only time the Form 4 needs to list the caliber is if you make a permanent change to your machinegun.

 

[MeekandMild]

Now that is an interesting question. Suppose you take out your barrel, bolt and magazine and throw them away then put in parts for a .22 conversion kit. Is that a permanent change since you no longer have a way of going back to 9mm? Or would you have to weld in the barrel or something which would forever prevent you from going back?

 

[Hkmp5sd]

ATF has the opinion that if you have all of the parts under your control to assemble a given firearm, you are in possession of that firearm. If you throw away the parts needed for your machinegun to match the caliber listed on the Form 4 and replace them with another caliber or alter the firearm so it can no longer use those parts, that would be a permanent change from their viewpoint and you would need to update the Form 4.

The same applies to barrel lengths. You may have as many uppers/barrels for your machinegun as you want without having each length listed on the Form 4. If you take your original barrel and chop it down to a shorter length, you again would need to update the Form 4.