Full auto ownership

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Let me say it in these terms. If a federal law was coming that would permanently preclude the transfer of fully auto weapons to private individuals who were not specially licensed, a TON of fully auto "guns" would show-up on the market. The effective supply would explode in size. The demand might too...
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So you're saying that even after 26 years, some manufacturers STILL haven't finished manufacturing the backlog of papered machine guns? That doesn't give me much hope for any gunsmithing I may need in the future...

Ok, lets say you're right and they still have these guns/papers in reserve and not in actual circulation among shooters. Why in the world would someone sit on a gun that cost them less than $200 to make, that now retails for $3,500 used? (Thinking specifically of a Mac 11) And that doesn't even take into consideration some belt fed machine guns that are going for more than $25-50,000 a piece :what: Anyone who had a bunch of registration papers would have cashed out years ago when the prices skyrocketed.

I do believe that if the laws get even more restrictive, there may be more unregistered machine guns in circulation (SMGs are laughably simple to make), but there won't be more transferables.
 
Kynoch: I don't understand what you're trying to say. The cutoff was 26 years ago -- 26 years of escalating prices. Anyone holding a stock of incomplete registered receivers would have had plenty of time, and financial incentive, to complete them and sell them. The downside risk to such a person is that in the event of an overturning or relaxing of the Hughes Amendment, he would lose the inflated value. On the other hand, there's little incentive for holding on to them in the hope of incremental increases in value.

I was a Class III dealer at the time the Hughes Amendment was enacted. Believe me, in the six months or so after May 19, the ATF visited most of the MG manufacturers. Lots and lots of incomplete receivers were deregistered.

The other side of the coin is that the incomplete receivers, for which registration was disallowed, were "non-guns" -- and thus could be sold freely with no regulation whatsoever. This is where the concept of the so-called "80% receiver" comes from. ("80% receiver" is actually a meaningless term. At one time, the test, according to the ATF, was whether the gun could be completed within 8 hours in a fully equipped and staffed machine shop. By that standard, all the disallowed guns should have been registered -- but they weren't. ATF is not known for logical consistency.)
 
Telekinesis said:
So you're saying that even after 26 years, some manufacturers STILL haven't finished manufacturing the backlog of papered machine guns? That doesn't give me much hope for any gunsmithing I may need in the future...

Ok, lets say you're right and they still have these guns/papers in reserve and not in actual circulation among shooters. Why in the world would someone sit on a gun that cost them less than $200 to make, that now retails for $3,500 used? (Thinking specifically of a Mac 11) And that doesn't even take into consideration some belt fed machine guns that are going for more than $25-50,000 a piece :what: Anyone who had a bunch of registration papers would have cashed out years ago when the prices skyrocketed.

I do believe that if the laws get even more restrictive, there may be more unregistered machine guns in circulation (SMGs are laughably simple to make), but there won't be more transferables.
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Please don't suggest that I said they were backlogged in production all these years. I said no such thing.

The guns are only getting more valuable. Dump them on the market and the price/unit drops. Begin dumping them from the very beginning in 1986 and today's prices would never have been realized -- at least not yet.
 
The guns are only getting more valuable. Dump them on the market and the price/unit drops. Begin dumping them from the very beginning in 1986 and today's prices would never have been realized -- at least not yet.
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And here is the point of disagreement: your whole theory rests on the assumption that there is a huge reservoir of registered, incomplete guns left to "dump." This assumption, from what I can see, is totally incorrect.

The number of guns that were in process on May 19, 1986, (and which were finally accepted for registration by the ATF) were sold within a few years, for the most part before the big runup in prices. In fact the big runup in prices was partly due to the exhaustion of those supplies. Sure, people like Oefinger (DLO) may have a few sideplates available to be assembled, but this doesn't have a significant effect on the market.

The second fallacy in your argument is the belief that the law is headed for further restrictions on machine guns, when more probably the opposite is true.
 
AlexanderA said:
And here is the point of disagreement: your whole theory rests on the assumption that there is a huge reservoir of registered, incomplete guns left to "dump." This assumption, from what I can see, is totally incorrect.

The number of guns that were in process on May 19, 1986, (and which were finally accepted for registration by the ATF) were sold within a few years, for the most part before the big runup in prices. In fact the big runup in prices was partly due to the exhaustion of those supplies. Sure, people like Oefinger (DLO) may have a few sideplates available to be assembled, but this doesn't have a significant effect on the market.

The second fallacy in your argument is the belief that the law is headed for further restrictions on machine guns, when more probably the opposite is true.
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You have any proof?
 
An incredibly expensive hobby....

I love guns as much as the next guy, but there's no room for FA in my life or budget. Kudos to those that have time/money.

Too much paperwork to keep track of and the ammo is expensive.

I've fired a lot of FA in my time in the Army... Uzi, MP5s, MG42, RPK, AK47 variants, SCAR in several calibers, M4, Miniguns (thounsands of rounds)...

If you're going to get a full auto and spend tens of thousands of dollars, ask yourself why? You aren't going to use it for self-defense or home defense. And if you're just going to go fire a few short bursts, then what's the point?

I think that the 'thrill' of FA will get old after a few paychecks worth of ammo are blasted in a range trip...

But to each their own.
 
If you're going to get a full auto and spend tens of thousands of dollars, ask yourself why?
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ask yourself why not ?

I saw plenty of folks trying to sell off ar15 & other black rifles during the economy downslide, all at a loss. Full auto stuff, hmm when was the last time you saw prices drop ?
 
Actually, the last time prices dropped was when the economy tanked in 08, and the market still hasn't recovered. I bought my machine gun for 60% of what the previous owner paid in 2005.

Just because the supply if fixed doesn't mean they aren't still subject to market forces.
 
Why not? $$$$$$$$$$

$20,000 buys a lot of more useful things than a full auto rifle that eats ammo and serves no practical purpose... Spare me the conversation about hobbies. I understand it. Just offering that it's a big investment just to shoot full auto... a $1000 comparable semi-auto rifle does everything you need with a lot less cost and hassle.

And if through some miracle full autos were once again fully legal and new ones able to be made... you'd lose nearly all of your investment in the gun.

Admittedly, that's fantasy...
 
Yet people drive to and from work daily in 40, 60 and 70K cars.

Imagine that , people buy what they want with their money.

And no, a semi-auto does not do everything a FA does. I see enough guys at the range trying to fake full auto with their AR's & AK's. It's not the same, not even close.

Either you get it , or you don't , those that do, understand. Those that don't, don't have to, which is what makes this such a great country.

:)
 
Why?

Because I wanted to. I now have three FAs waiting approval on the fourth. Currently looking for number five. Call it investing or hobby or whatever you want. I simply call it fun. Granted I'm no where near wealthy, however my wife and I live within our means and it doesn't bother me to save for what I want.

The simple fact is that you could ask yourself or anyone else why they need any gun. Hunting maybe but the how many people in the US really need to hunt anymore, there are supermarkets everywhere. But for those that do need to hunt I could see an 870 or Mossberg 500. If you need a hunting rifle an inexpensive 30-06 will most certainly do the job. For home or personal defense the shotgun will cover the home and a 357 will provide all the personal defense one need.

So I guess the real question should be why the $1000 semi auto?

You certainly don't need one.
 
Full auto

DLO may still have some sten tubes and 1919 sideplates. Erb may still have a couple of MP40 tubes. The market did a modest correction from late 2008 until about early 2011, meaning a drop in price but it appears that is over now. I have told myself that this is my last form 4 unless I see a good deal. the veternans heritage presevation act is one of the bills that could come to frutition and soften the market again and I hope it happens. I hope the hughes ammendment is overturned and my 50K "investment" drops to maybe $15K. But that appears less likely soon. So to play legally, one has to pay. And a true full auto puts a smile on anyones face the first time. A reising, tube sten, mac (with a lage upper) or MK760 are all available for about $4K and are fun guns.
 
I love my FA MG's... And honestly say you shoot 9 boxes of 9mm your spending exactly or more than I reload a 1,000 rounds for. My advice for FA is buy a reloading press!

FA's are freaking awesome! I used to be the guy saying, man I dont even want one of those, I can't afford the ammo. But I probally shoot at least 1,000 rounds a month just from my FA.
 
I get more joy from watching my FA's go up in value than from shooting them. Actually, these two goals work at cross purposes: putting wear on them has an adverse effect on their value. Shooting FA's is like burning money. Would you burn money just for the momentary thrill you might get? There's also the idea of preserving a heritage for future generations, especially since legal FA's have been capped.
 
I buy firearms to shoot them, not let them sit... Of course I shoot some more than others. But I don't buy firearms as an investment. I also buy at the best price, but Its nice to always be ahead of the value...
 
Shooting FA's is like burning money
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might be like burning your money...but these are way too much fun to not enjoy.

If you use them and maintain them, the values don't decrease that much.....of course the people I shoot with would rather use them than have them sit and collect dust.
 
Hey guys, I don't own any fa, but I want to. I think part of the need to own one is because of what the 2nd amendment says and stands for. Btw, this site is awesome, thanks all for the wealth of info.
 
I can tell you why I didn't have any before I did. I thought it took a bunch of legal hoops I had to jump through. Once I found out all I needed to do was get Quicken will maker (no I don't own stock) and have at it, made it a different game.
 
I always said I don't need nothing like that. Then about 7yrs ago I went to my first MG shoot! And I have been in love with NFA stuff ever since. It took me a while to figger out what it took to own FA! Now the last five items I have bought have been NFA's. (3 MG's) (2 SBR's).
You know you don't burn as much ammo as you think you will, you run a few mags through and then you shoot all the stuff you have always shoot 1911's,AK's and other stuff. MG's are like land, thay can not make and sell to the public any more so pretty safe investment. I'm on the lower end of MG world! $4K to $6K. And I don't have the money to play in the Thompson $ range. Would if I could! I think they are easier to sell than the $20,000 ones. But still very fun. And you can always sell....just my 2cents
 
Another note on interstate transfer.

If the gun is a C&R (all WWII and before are), AND the out-of-state transferee (buyer) has a C&R FFL, the gun can be shipped/taken directly to him without the need of a class 3 SOT dealer in his state. If the transferor (seller) is unlicensed or a non-SOT dealer, there is no need for a Class 3 dealer in either state.

Of course BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the tax (if applicable) must come before the actual transfer takes place.

Jim
 
No practical purpose?!?! Mine is my car gun. Seriously, my SMG has taken the place of the rifle I used to tote everywhere (fl's wonderful). So, no, mine's not just a hobby or toy. Its a legitimate SD tool.

That said - why? Because they're freakin awesome! Everyone knows it. Heck, goes ask a 9yr old. They can also be quite effective, like mine - it's heavy, short, shoulderable, slow rate of fire, equipped with both a flashlight and an eotech.

A full auto and a silencer have been my firearm goal since I was a child. My toy guns had suppressors on them. I finally got an SMG and I will be ordering my silencer in two weeks. I'm finally "done", there's nothingelse I really want. I have a carry piece and an M4gery or SMG for the car. I don't want a big collection, I just want a couple guns that I truly love.

I almost built an SBR M11as a semi for the cost savings compared to going full auto. My wife talked me into the machinegun. She believed I would never be truly happy and always look at the SBR with anger and regret. I'm glad she pushed me into going all the way :)
 
Seriously, my SMG has taken the place of the rifle I used to tote everywhere (fl's wonderful). So, no, mine's not just a hobby or toy. Its a legitimate SD tool.
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With all due respect, you need to rethink this. If you ever have to actually use it for SD, your legal position won't be too good. (Juries tend to think that using a SMG for "self defense" is "overkill" -- and that's putting it mildly.)

Another issue is that keeping a SMG in the car poses a theft risk. I once sold a Browning beltfed to a guy who later had it stolen out of the trunk of his car. This was a big deal to the local police and the ATF (thankfully, the gun was eventually recovered, but not some of the accessories that were with it).

I know that you're in Florida, but here in Virginia, routinely carrying a FA in your car could get you into legal trouble if it came to light (due to the Uniform Machine Gun Act, which is also the law in several other states).
 
I've considered all of these possibilities, but until I finish building my AK pistol I still consider it the most appropriate tool for what purpose it serves. Thank you thouh :)

Edit to add - yea, I forgot to mention the AK pistol when I said I was "done" oops.
 
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