Fully auto and failures...

[SilentStalker]

Ok, something that has perplexed me for awhile is how fully autos seem to run so smoothly. Like, I never hear of a fully auto gun malfunctioning much, which I find strange, but yet there is all kinds of stories out there about their semi-auto counterparts failing and going kaboom, etc. So, here is my question, "with the rate of fire that most fully autos have, how would one know not to continue firing before it went kaboom, say due to a squib?" Thoughts on this?

 

[rcmodel]

Well, if you did have a squib, which would be an extremely rare occurrence with military ammo used in most full-auto guns?

The gun would stop firing.

about their semi-auto counterparts failing and going kaboom, etc

Not nearly as many Internet commandos posting about machineguns as there are posting about their friends uncles AR-15 or AK-47 he built that had a problem with another friends cousins reloads.

rc

 

[General Geoff]

the short answer is that you really can't know or anticipate a squib in a full auto. If there's a squib and you get a round lodged in the barrel, well, there goes that barrel and/or action.

The reason why you don't hear about it more often is two-fold:
1. Private citizens who can afford transferable machine guns, can also afford new barrels, bolts and other parts which might be damaged very easily and don't make a huge deal out of it if/when it does happen. And any machine gun owner who puts their machine gun(s) through heavy use WILL be replacing parts on it routinely.
2. The sample size difference between machine gun owners and semiautomatic owners is staggering. You're talking at least tens of millions vs a few hundred thousand.



edit; rcmodel pointed out something I completely forgot about.. if it's a squib, it's highly likely that the gun will not cycle the next round (depending of course on the action type). So yeah. And full autos do occasionally jam.

 

[1911Tuner]

the short answer is that you really can't know or anticipate a squib in a full auto. If there's a squib and you get a round lodged in the barrel, well, there goes that barrel and/or action.

That depends on what sort of machine gun that is being fired. If it's gas operated, the bullet has to come to a stop with the base just forward of the gas port, or the bolt won't cycle. If the gunner manually cycles it and fires another round...yeah...it'd be unpleasant.

 

[General Geoff]

It's interesting to point out that a squib would be much harder to detect when firing a multi-barrel gatling style weapon, because they are cycled via external power and a squib will not cause the gun to stop cycling.


but again, if you're firing a minigun, you're spending more on ammo to shoot it for a minute than a new barrel would cost anyway.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Like, I never hear of a fully auto gun malfunctioning much, which I find strange,

Full auto guns do malfunction, break, fail, etc. Some are worse than others.

When I shot my M2 Carbine a good bit I had a gallon Zip Lock bag full of broken gun parts, extractors, bolts, piston, nut and housing, etc, even a cracked receiver.
Simple blow-back guns, like the UZI, do hold up very well.

 

[taliv]

theoretically speaking, it's far easier to make a gun fire full auto than semi auto, due to the more complex FCG (disconnectors etc) compared to a simple open-bolt design. thus, we would expect semi-auto to fail more often

however, in practice, i see machine guns malfunction all the time. it's just not widely reported. usually, it's because they're

a) at least 26 years old
b) been repaired with surplus parts of dubious quality
c) mostly cheap / crappy designs to begin with (WW2 crap)
d) shooting the cheapest ammo available
e) people just want to do mag dumps with them

 

[PocketRocket]

Machine Gun Owner

I have a Ruger AC-5.56 in S/S with the Ruger folding stock and I have experienced a squib load with it. The gas produced by the squib was not strong enough to cycle the action and no consequences occurred because as with any squib load or any malfunction the operator should check for barrel obstructions. I used to shoot in machine gun competitions and I never saw or heard of a squib load causing another round being chambered…But there is usually a first time for everything. Please note that my experience is with machine guns and NOT sub-guns or machine pistols

You didn’t always have to have a substantial bank account to own a full auto firearm. I purchased this pristine gun in 1991 (5 yeats after the change in the NFA rules) with four Ruger 30 round magazines for $1000.00 before the cost of machine guns went totally nuts.

The parts that Geoff spoke of while not cheap still make it worthwhile to repair a machine gun. The only damaged part that is of real concern is the receiver. According to ATF regs at the time of my purchase if the receiver was damaged it could only be repaired NOT replaced.

The last time I checked the price of this gun it was in the $7,000.00+ range. so to avoid damage to the receiver from battering I installed a recoil buffer and I now painstakingly load my own ammo for it with slowest burning power at the lowest published safe pressure all the while checking the loaded powder capacity of each case.

 

[Jeff White]

Not nearly as many Internet commandos posting about machineguns as there are posting about their friends uncles AR-15 or AK-47 he built that had a problem with another friends cousins reloads.

rcmodel has it right. You don't read much about it because there isn't that much general experience with machine guns. Private machine gun ownership has been priced out of the reach of most people since 1986. The percent of the population who has served in the military has been dropping since the draft ended in 1973. And of that small population, the number of veterans who have served in ground combat arms where they would have a lot direct experience with automatic weapons is much smaller.

I can say that after more then 20 years as an Infantryman that automatic weapons do malfunction, often and sometimes spectacularly. The old M60 machine gun was a nightmare to keep running especially at the end of its service life. The M16 family of rifles would double feed if they had a bad magazine. I've seen barrels heated up to the point they lost their rigidity and a bullet exited the side of the barrel, not through the bore. Parts break. This can be a bigger problem then with semi autos because of the number of rounds fired and the heat produced.

 

[Ian]

I've had lots of machine guns malfunction on me, although none catastrophically. Some issues are easy to fix, some aren't. Lessee...

Overly tight headspacing preventing a 1919 from cycling (easy fix). A Madsen M50 that held magazines a hair too low, so a bunch of mags caused round to nosedive into the trunnion. The very first time I took my Vickers out, the 10th round had a case head separation. Normally an easy fix, but I didn't have a broken shell extractor, so that ended my shooting day. A Sten that ran away because the sear notch on the bolt was worn down and wouldn't catch. A Madsen LMG that jammed up hard on an out-of-spec round of surplus 8mm. A Steyr-Solothurn with a bad replacement trunnion that wouldn't properly chamber rounds. And so on...

Most MG shooters have spare parts and the know-how to fix common problems, or at least moreso than your average gun owner. In addition, the occasional malfunction is just a fact of life with machine guns, because of the number of rounds you put through them. You shouldn't have expectations of absolute perfection like some folks do with carry pistols, and malfunctions aren't a big deal worth commenting on.

 

[Trebor]

I've had failures to fire and failures to extract with my UZI at times. I'm still trying to troubleshoot the issues. Right now I think they are mainly mag related.

 

[Lt.Dan]

The 240G I carried would not run without lube and being properly cleaned. Never had a squib since it was all military ammo but I did have some internal parts break, and I went through a ton of barrels. Mk19s will not run without LSA either, you can pee in them, dump water in them or even gatorade, they will just not run without LSA. Being a 0331 is about my only experience with autos.

 

[kozak6]

It's like posting the following on a car forum:

"What's with the amazing reliability of Bugatti's and Lamborghini's? Everyone has a problem with their Ford or Chevy, but never with a Bugatti. I've never even heard of a flat tire on a Lambo."

It's not that they are pinnacles of reliability, it's that they are horrifyingly expensive playthings for the wealthy and dedicated enthusiast (or their dealer).

Almost everybody can afford a semiauto. Full auto costs orders of magnitude more if it's even lawfully obtainable.

 

[JTW Jr.]

At our local machine gun monthly matches. The ones that seem to choke the most are :
MP5 & the AM22's.

So much on the MP5's in fact that we have call them "Hand Klear Mostly Problematic " With us though, it is all in good fun, and we heckle each other as we shoot.

It seems all guns run well in practice, but when that timer goes off and you hear the BEEP, it seems that little guy murphy tends to rise up from the depths of the magazine and jam himself somewhere.

Every mechanical thing screws up now and then...nature of the beast.