Think that's a better way of wording what I was trying to say, Justin. If you're thinking "should I check it out, or just go back to (whatever you were doing, usually in these vinnetes its sleeping)", then you should check it out. Better to come across the BG while you're in fight mode and are armed than to lower your defenses, especially if going to sleep. That's my thinking, anyway.
Funny thing happened last night!
- Thread starter Win_SX-1
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What?
Can he move around, open drawers, take items, etc. without making noise?
Actually, the 'school solution' here is to call if there is reason to suspect that someone is in the house.
He doesn't have to "hide in ambush", he just has to keep an eye on the doors through which you would be coming. He can see where they are, but you don't know where he is. And if there are two, as is likely, you walk into a crossfire.
One other advantage that he has/they have is that they can shoot on sight, and you have to identify your target.
Do you really care to make a judgment about something that you have never seen? BTW, they go through all kinds of scenarios. The result is always (well, maybe always except for a couple of time) the same--the ensconced defender wins.
That sounds reasonable. But if you go out to hunt them and they are in the house, we may well not be seeing your posts any more.
Sam suggest motion detecting lights.
Might I suggest that a couple of CCTVs would give you the certainty you want and, if the answer is not the all clear, keep you out of harms way until help arrives or give you the information you need about those steps coming toward your funnel of fire?
None of us is bulletproof. If we mosey forth, we may encounter a burglar and be shot first, or we may shoot and miss, or we may hit him once, or maybe twice. He may still be able to fire back. That is not a desired outcome.
Keep in mind that a lot of these tactics suggested do not apply to some people. I live in a condo. I can't set up motion activated lights outside, and prefer not to have them inside. CCTV sounds like it might be an expensive option, especially considering the size of my condo.
Granted, I feel more secure here than I would have if I had gotten a house, because my condo is in the back of a decent neighborhood, and the houses in my price range were not anywhere friendly (I'd get and carry a G18 EDC if I lived where those houses are).
I don't want the cops busting in my front door at 2 AM because I thought there might be somebody present.
Granted, I feel more secure here than I would have if I had gotten a house, because my condo is in the back of a decent neighborhood, and the houses in my price range were not anywhere friendly (I'd get and carry a G18 EDC if I lived where those houses are).
I don't want the cops busting in my front door at 2 AM because I thought there might be somebody present.
It isn't.
"Having reason to suspect" and "thinking there might be" are two different things.
Either way, if there's no one there, walking around with gun in hand works as long as you keep you finger off the trigger. If there is, it is not a good strategy.
Texan Scott
Member
An old saying I've grown more fond of as my teenagers get older: when the young pup barks, shush him; when the old hound bays, get the shotgun.
I'm frequently awakened by noises that my dogs hear so often they don't react. If my dogs don't bark, I go back to sleep. I also know that I sleep more soundly than my dogs. If they hear something, I probably won't wake to that noise, but to them barking at the noise.
I also have been guilty years ago of going out to look for the trouble; another case of God watching out for fools and horses. Now, I'm planning on yelling:
I KNOW YOU'RE HERE/ THE SHERIFF'S COMING/ I HAVE A GUN
and letting them make the decision. Problem is, if they're stupid enough to stay, my bedroom is across the house from my kids' rooms, and I'm gonna go through the house to make sure they're ok, and anyone that's not supposed to be there will almost assuredly be shot repeatedly. This is something to keep in mind when I get the money/ stability to build a new house; all the bedrooms on the same side of the house.
I'm frequently awakened by noises that my dogs hear so often they don't react. If my dogs don't bark, I go back to sleep. I also know that I sleep more soundly than my dogs. If they hear something, I probably won't wake to that noise, but to them barking at the noise.
I also have been guilty years ago of going out to look for the trouble; another case of God watching out for fools and horses. Now, I'm planning on yelling:
I KNOW YOU'RE HERE/ THE SHERIFF'S COMING/ I HAVE A GUN
and letting them make the decision. Problem is, if they're stupid enough to stay, my bedroom is across the house from my kids' rooms, and I'm gonna go through the house to make sure they're ok, and anyone that's not supposed to be there will almost assuredly be shot repeatedly. This is something to keep in mind when I get the money/ stability to build a new house; all the bedrooms on the same side of the house.
Sharing Some Thoughts
I've mentioned CCTV, but in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't put it in myself, yet. Here'e why.
It's a matter of priority. While home defense is certainly important, the likelihood of needing to defend oneself at home is materially lower than that of having to defend oneself when not at home. Not a real driver, but....
... there's the question of the time of day. It appears that the likelihood of a home invasion during the night time is significantly lower than the probability of a defensive situation occurring during the day.
So, a viewing screen in the bedroom might well be of limited utility. Where else might I put it? I don't know.
That moves that solution lower on the priority list.
What I am more concerned about is addressing strangers who come to the front door. An intercom is priority one. And maybe a CCTV on the porch, next.
My thoughts, for your consideration.
I've mentioned CCTV, but in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't put it in myself, yet. Here'e why.
It's a matter of priority. While home defense is certainly important, the likelihood of needing to defend oneself at home is materially lower than that of having to defend oneself when not at home. Not a real driver, but....
... there's the question of the time of day. It appears that the likelihood of a home invasion during the night time is significantly lower than the probability of a defensive situation occurring during the day.
So, a viewing screen in the bedroom might well be of limited utility. Where else might I put it? I don't know.
That moves that solution lower on the priority list.
What I am more concerned about is addressing strangers who come to the front door. An intercom is priority one. And maybe a CCTV on the porch, next.
My thoughts, for your consideration.
Hunter125
Member
I agree with what Kleanbore and Sam have said. I also happen to be the type of person who cannot go back to sleep until I know for sure nothing is amiss. That said, I almost always know what the noise I heard was before I go check it out. The one's that freak me out are when my wife wakes me up telling me she heard a noise or voices that I didn't hear, then she says, "Oh, nevermind, just go back to sleep." Yeah right!
My problem is that our house is a very open floor plan, all of the bedrooms open off the main two rooms in a particularly small house. My daughter sleeps in another room, and no way on this earth will I leave her alone if I think she could be in danger. So essentially I'm left with the choice of clearing the majority of my house, or leaving my daughter alone, possibly in danger. Those of you with more experience in this type of thing, what do you do in this type of situation?
My problem is that our house is a very open floor plan, all of the bedrooms open off the main two rooms in a particularly small house. My daughter sleeps in another room, and no way on this earth will I leave her alone if I think she could be in danger. So essentially I'm left with the choice of clearing the majority of my house, or leaving my daughter alone, possibly in danger. Those of you with more experience in this type of thing, what do you do in this type of situation?
MedWheeler
Member
Derailed?
bikerdoc
Moderator In Memoriam
If y'all dont mind here is the what I have put in place over the years for a funny thing happening at night.
Layered defense.
hardened doors.
Pinned windows.
Alarm.
Motion sensor lights
Inside dog
Outside dog.
choke points leading to the bedrooms.
flash lights, weapons, and cell phone at the ready.
And still Mr Murphy will confound you with something funny like the cat stepping on the remote and turning on the TV, or knocking over a glass vase.
Layered defense.
hardened doors.
Pinned windows.
Alarm.
Motion sensor lights
Inside dog
Outside dog.
choke points leading to the bedrooms.
flash lights, weapons, and cell phone at the ready.
And still Mr Murphy will confound you with something funny like the cat stepping on the remote and turning on the TV, or knocking over a glass vase.
JustinJ
Member
If he's making all this noise how would i not be able to identify his location from around a corner to begin with? Unlike him i know my house and can easily navigate in the dark. Not to mention my house is pitch black at night so unless he is going to be feeling his away around his position will be anything but concealed by a flashlight.
Actually i don't. So long as the gf is in bed beside me when i awake there is no plausible way a friendly will be wandering around my home at night. And if we hvae company the bedrooms are all in the same hallway so verifying everyone is where they should be would be no problem.
If one goes on the NRA website there are countless stories available of people who checked the house and prevailed despite whatever orchestrated scenarios have been run. In the vast majority, even the armed bad guys fled the second a gun was seen or heard if able.
I prefer my four legged active security systems with response capability. And they work quite well in the dark. Not to mention they are part of my family too so i do feel an obligation to back them up. Plus it would just not be humane to leave an intruder alone with them.
Neither are my walls which is why i believe yelling out anything from the bedroom or wherever is a terrible idea.
Medwheeler, i'm not sure what else there was to discuss.
If he is making reasonably repetitive noises you will know he is in the house and what room he is in--and that's just about it.
Navigation isn't the problem. And why are you assuming that it will happen at night? Most burglaries do not.
Oh yes you do.
That may be a good assumption, but it is not a certainty, and no prudent person should ever even consider violating the rules of safety and risking a terrible tragedy and the loss of everything he or she owns on that basis. That thinking is completely irresponsible.
Yes, and there is even an account in the current magazine issue relating the story of a man who went forth unarmed, encountered two burglars, one of whom pointed a gun at him but did not fire, and was able to get away and retrieve his firearm.
That could go under "dumb crook stories" and under "foolish but lucky".
But The Armed Citizen only reports successes.
Speaking of the NRA, you could benefit from this.
Even if it could save a life, innocent or otherwise or even yours, or prevent you from havinG to go through the aftermath of a deadly force encounter?
Among those who have put any thought into the subject, you are virtually alone in holding that opinion.
I too would once grab a gun and go looking, before I really knew any better. Then my CCW instructor said forcefully, "let the threat come to you" and recommended the NRA course. I started looking into the subject. As Sam said earlier, we have covered this ground many times before. Those who train, those who have been trained, and those who have had the duty to enforce the law are unanimous: don't try it unless it is your sworn duty, and don't do it alone. The sole exception involves getting loved ones to safety.
Yet you continue to disagree, offering up "I believe", "I would venture", "I think in reality", and "it seems highly improbable"; and supposing that "the last thing he will want to do", "most people will not", "it seems highly improbable", and the like.
It is not clear whether you are arguing just for the sake of argument or are just naive, but it is quite clear that your opinion is counter to the nearly unanimous views of everyone from whom we have heard in the last several years who is qualified to offer advice on this subject.
If you want to bunker down to keep the element of surprise and defensive position, why are you yelling out? Personally, whether the home invader lives or dies isn't my primary concern at this point. I'm not out to kill him, but if I KNOW he's there, and until he ceases, my priority is my safety > my neighbor's safety > my property > his safety. If I had other people in the home, they would be equal to my safety. I'm not saying that I want to or am planning on killing someone, but my priority is not going to be to on ensuring that the BG lives.
I'm in the same boat as Justin, except I don't have a gf. I live alone. In what situation would someone sneaking around in my place at night be anything other than an invader?
I'm in the same boat as Justin, except I don't have a gf. I live alone. In what situation would someone sneaking around in my place at night be anything other than an invader?
That was covered in Post #20.
The likelihood may be remote but the possibility exists. Terrible tragedies have happened.
The third rule of firearms safety - "Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!" - was not intended only for those shooting .22 rifles down by the creek. You do not want to shoot an innocent because you didn't identify him, and if you are attacked on the street, you want to fire only from a position that does not put people in the background at undue risk.
Ah, good point in Post 20. I blame the fact it was on Page 1 and we're on Page 2 now. That comment was so yesterday!
I'm still failing to see a situation where a friendly would be present, if I hear a bump in the night while living alone. Can you provide an example?
I still plan on target ident, but I also don't expect there to be a friendly at my home in the first place.
I'm still failing to see a situation where a friendly would be present, if I hear a bump in the night while living alone. Can you provide an example?
I still plan on target ident, but I also don't expect there to be a friendly at my home in the first place.
Exactly right.Kleanbore said:
The interesting thing when this topic comes up, and it does fairly often, is that the folks who want to go clear are folks who have had little or no training. On the other hand, folks who have had some serious training, especially going through shoot-houses or force-on-force, or those like LEOs who have done this sort of thing, all say they would avoid solo clearing unless absolutely necessary, e. g., to get an innocent to safety.
Does that suggest anything to anyone?
Win_SX-1
Member
Wow - When I started this thread, I just thought I'd share my "incident" - I did not expect it to get this lively!
I agree with the people posting here - normally my dog would have been the first and best burglar alarm. However, she is so scared of thunder that she would not have warned me in this instance.
In this case, I quickly identified the source of the voice. I did the right thing by not immediately going downstairs but waiting at the top - a very defensible position. However, I think I made the following mistakes:
- I should have either woken my wife and had her ready to call 911
OR
- I should have had a phone as well as my handgun
If there was an intruder, I would have had to leave my "safe" location to call 911.
- If I had not identified the voice, I should have warned any intruder to get away - I really don't want to have to shoot anyone if I didn't have to. On that night, however, the thought never occurred to me to shout out.
I agree with the people posting here - normally my dog would have been the first and best burglar alarm. However, she is so scared of thunder that she would not have warned me in this instance.
In this case, I quickly identified the source of the voice. I did the right thing by not immediately going downstairs but waiting at the top - a very defensible position. However, I think I made the following mistakes:
- I should have either woken my wife and had her ready to call 911
OR
- I should have had a phone as well as my handgun
If there was an intruder, I would have had to leave my "safe" location to call 911.
- If I had not identified the voice, I should have warned any intruder to get away - I really don't want to have to shoot anyone if I didn't have to. On that night, however, the thought never occurred to me to shout out.
The first step in risk management is always to identify the risks, and that usually starts with listing 'what if' situations and possibilities. How about the neighbor's long lost nephew who had written down the wrong address and forced the door: the inebriated party-goer coming home to the wrong block (that happened in Boulder CO, but the man became so violent when trying to get in that the tragic shooting has not resulted in charges); the relative of the person taking possession of a new house who comes to the wrong place and forces the door; the sleepwalking child who comes in on the one night of the decade on which you left the door unlocked; the neighbor or fireman who breaks in to save you from a fire you have not yet detected; and so on?
Neither do I, but I sure won't put human life at risk on that basis.
Frank, in my defense, I was clarifying (with better semantic help from KB) the difference between clearing because there might be something there, and bunkering down because you strongly suspect there's something there.
KB, I guess that makes sense. It's just hard to picture someone accidentally coming into my 3rd floor condo on accident. It's a locked door to even get into the building, and then there is one door on either side of the staircase, so the only real easy mistake would be the people accross from me - even then they're right at the top of the stairs and I'm on the other side of the landing.
KB, I guess that makes sense. It's just hard to picture someone accidentally coming into my 3rd floor condo on accident. It's a locked door to even get into the building, and then there is one door on either side of the staircase, so the only real easy mistake would be the people accross from me - even then they're right at the top of the stairs and I'm on the other side of the landing.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Certainly, and that's a positive thing. The point remains undiminished, however, that you don't want to shoot ANYONE for ANY reason. Alerting/warning off whomever is there is a huge first step to never having to get within eyesight of a threat, as well as giving the one-in-a-million "whoops" a chance to identify and avoid a tragedy.
Scaring off a bad guy is a much better plan than sitting stealthily until you're nose-to-nose and you HAVE to shoot (and he may decide he does too...
).In the very unlikely chance that this person came here to KILL you, or that they are willing to risk a shootout with you and murder you in order to finish their robbery, alerting them that you're awake, aware, and armed cannot really hurt. Worrying that they'll shoot through your walls doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as there would be such a very low probability of hits that way, and they'd be attracting a whole lot of attention without improving their chances of mission success.
Assuming that their goal for intruding is NOT assassination (in which case, there are more efficient ways, and what are you, in the mafia?) then allowing/forcing a face-to-face confrontation is much more likely to lead to shots fired and someone dying than is sending out the "engraved invitation" to beat feat.
Worse: online gamer. There are stories of people who were embarrassed in a video game (specific one I'm thinking of is a person got knifed in a FPS) finding out where the opponent lives and going up to them and knifing them in person.
You're assuming they're rational. They might try to Jack Bauer me by shooting where they think I'll be, and Murphy suggests they may hit. But I see your point.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Uuuummmm...oh kay.
Not sure if I left you speechless or if you're using the "if you don't have anything nice to say..." principle. My last comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek, but you don't need to be in the mafia to have someone want to put out a hit on you. All you need is someone crazy who feels you have wronged them - coworker who you got promoted over, anything relating to current or ex relationships, someone in a video game, that guy in the bar who roots for the other team...
But you are right. If someone wants to assassinate me while I'm asleep, forcing a gunfight is probably not the easiest way to do it. Unless they want to claim a bizarre form of self defense "I accidentally went into the wrong home, and he shot at me, so I had to shoot back to defend myself." I can see someone trying that defense, but not forcing the gunfight to use it.
But you are right. If someone wants to assassinate me while I'm asleep, forcing a gunfight is probably not the easiest way to do it. Unless they want to claim a bizarre form of self defense "I accidentally went into the wrong home, and he shot at me, so I had to shoot back to defend myself." I can see someone trying that defense, but not forcing the gunfight to use it.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, that was ... sort of a "speechless" moment. I do hope that my online habits don't someday encourage anyone to set out to murder me. Certainly not my gaming habits. (That's supposed to be like, for FUN, right? 
)
At any rate, if someone is looking to assasinate you, well, they probably can. I don't plan my home defense strategy around any deliberate attempts to kill me, personally, and if I thought such threats were realistic, I'd make some very different preparations.
)At any rate, if someone is looking to assasinate you, well, they probably can. I don't plan my home defense strategy around any deliberate attempts to kill me, personally, and if I thought such threats were realistic, I'd make some very different preparations.
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