Further experimenting with BP loaded shotgun shells

[Busyhands94]

Lately I've been doing quite a lot of trap shooting, as some of you know I haven't been able to shoot pistol or rifle for a while due to the land I usually shot on being closed off.

So I started shooting trap at the gun club but the smokeless fumes were starting to get to my head. I needed a new way to get my BP fix. So I started loading shotshells with blackpowder, 16 guage 3" with my supplies purchased from Ballistic Products Inc.

From BPI I purchased Rio hulls, waxed nitro card wads, and their mini overshot card wads. The load I was using at first was 3 drams of Goex black rifle powder, I found out quickly that 3 drams and an ounce of shot was a painful load out of my 6 pound shotgun. I tried two drams, that was softer and easy to shoot but didn't get the shot there fast enough. I settled on a load of 2.5 drams of BP or Pyrodex and one ounce of 7 1/2 chilled lead birdshot as a target load.

Boy am I having fun shooting these loads!
They are actually patterning fairly well, and the recoil isn't too bad either.
I let some other curious shooters try out my gun with some BP loads, they were a hit over there, everyone loved them!

More updates to come when I get some shot and try some plastic shot cups, I have used those in 12 gauge loads with 3 drams of powder. After a few smokeless loads the BP fouling got shot out! I'll see if I can make shot cups work with BP, I'd bet if there was a mini nitro card under them the base wouldn't melt and I wouldn't get any plastic fouling. Of course I don't know until I try, just another excuse to burn more blackpowder!



~Levi

 

[splattergun]

Any particular reason you're using 3" shells? I know I get a harder recoil from 3s than 2 3/4.

 

[Busyhands94]

3" shells are the ones I bought, I didn't see any 2 1/2" shells on BPI. But it doesn't seem to matter that the card wad is any further back from the mouth of the shell in my handloads, they shoot just fine!

 

[BullRunBear]

Please keep us informed on the experiments. I've been wanting to try BP loads with a Stevens 12 ga. SxS. I like my old CVA 12 ga. SxS muzzleloader, but it's gawd awful slow to load in competiton. Unless we're all shooting MLs (which makes for the longest round of trap known to mankind) I don't want to delay things. OTOH, I don't mind putting billowing clouds of good smoke in the air.

Jeff

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I didn't know they made 16 in 3". It was the 3" 20 that "killed off the 16".

 

[swopjan]

what is "chilled lead"?

 

[Busyhands94]

351 Winchester, the shells are actually 3" uncrimped, but that makes for a 3" load if I really want my butt kicked by my shotgun. I usually load them down to 2 1/2" shell specs for trap shooting. A full house load is powerful! If you put 18 #4 buckshot in there it's like having 18 hot .22 LR's hit the target, it's rather lethal!

The only problem is the recoil is intense with those 3 dram loads, it hurts to shoot a full box of ammo even with BP. You might as well eat a sack of angry Africanized bees.

Swopjan, chilled lead shot are lead shot that contain only a small percentage of antimony, whereas magnum shot contain much more antimony. Both shot types have their drawbacks and their strengths. Chilled lead deforms a little more upon firing, but it is much more dense so you can really reach out and touch something.
Magnum shot are harder, deform less, thus patterning better. The drawback is that they don't have the "oomph" of chilled lead, so you might get a few clays that get hit but not broken.

Say you have a ping pong ball and a golf ball, and want to chuck it at me and I'm 50 feet away. Chilled lead is like the golf ball and magnum shot is like the ping pong ball. Ignore the hardness part. You will be able to throw a golf ball further and with more energy than the ping pong ball. I don't want anyone tracking me down and throwing ping pong balls at me, so don't get any funny ideas!

Sorry to write you a whole essay on the differences of chilled lead shot versus magnum shot, but it's good to know.

I think I'll see if my friend Chester will let me use his Chronograph when he gets back to shooting. He broke a rib right before a liver surgery, the poor guy isn't able to shoot with all the holes he's got in him. But when he's able to go shoot with us I'll see if I can borrow his chronograph and clock these blackpowder shotgun loads, even some 3 dram loads. I'm curious about how fast those are going!

~Levi

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

Levi, Thanks for clearing things up.

Ken

 

[Busyhands94]

Sure thing!

 

[mr16ga]

You are crimping the shells or trimming them aren't you!
16 ga does not have a 3 inch version at least I have never seen or heard of a 16 ga being chambered for 3 inches. There would be no purpose in doing so as a 16 ga with 3 inch chamber would be equal to a 12 ga with 2 3/4 inch.
standard 16 ga chambers are:
2 3/4" new chamber
2 9/16" old chamber

I have both.

You will get very high chamber pressure if you are using 3" length

 

[Busyhands94]

You are crimping the shells or trimming them aren't you!
16 ga does not have a 3 inch version at least I have never seen or heard of a 16 ga being chambered for 3 inches. There would be no purpose in doing so as a 16 ga with 3 inch chamber would be equal to a 12 ga with 2 3/4 inch.
standard 16 ga chambers are:
2 3/4" new chamber
2 9/16" old chamber

I have both.

You will get very high chamber pressure if you are using 3" length

Actually I used some uncrimped hulls, instead of putting a star or roll crimp on my shells I used a simple overshot card wad. Of course the wad does take up a good amount of space, same with the propellent, blackpowder being bulkier than smokeless. Of course you own more 16 gauges than I do, I've got one break action. And your username is Mr16ga, so I would imagine you're the guy to talk to about 16's!

Here's a photo of one of my handloads next to a 12 guage Remington Gun Club, which is 2 1/2" and my shells are 3". I'm not sure if this qualifies as a 3" shell, but they certainly are 3" and shoot just fine out of my shotgun. That's why I'm calling them 3" shells, I probably should do it up right and crimp my hulls.

But if you look at the 16 guage hull the load isn't any longer than the Remmy gun club hull. So with the target load in this picture the load isn't as long as the hull. It's kinda hard to see, but you can see the wad through the hull if you look really closely.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

There are lots of Cowboy Action shooters who load shotshells with Black Powder, and I am one of them.

Black Powder is actually easier to ignite than Smokeless powder, so you don't need magnum primers, standard primers will work just fine.

When you switch to plastic shot cups you will most likely find melted plastic left behind in your barrels. This is because BP burns hotter than Smokeless and tends to melt the plastic shotcups as they pass through the barrel. Not a big deal, usually scrubbing with really hot water will loosen the plastic gunk when you are all done.

Personally, I load my BP shells with separate card wads and fiber wads from Circle Fly so I don't have to deal with the melted plastic. Yes, it is more time consuming, but that is the way I do it.

One thing to be aware of. With Black Powder shotgun loads it is easy to put too much powder into the shell. Too much powder for any given load tends to blow a hole in the center of the pattern. There is an old BP shotgun standard called the Square Load. A square load will have an equal volume of powder and shot. Not weight, volume. Putting in more powder by volume than shot may start ruining your pattern. On the other hand, putting in less powder than shot by volume will not hurt the pattern at all. It will just have a bit less velocity.

I cannot make any suggestions to you for 16 gauge loads, but my standard 12 gauge load is a standard Winchester 209 primer, 4.4CC of FFg powder, any brand, a Circle Fly 1/8" over powder card, a Circle Fly 1/2" fiber cushion wad, 1 1/8 ounces of #8 shot, and a thin Circle Fly over shot card. The 4.4CC load of powder works out to about 2 1/3 drams of powder or so, so this is well under the Square Load limit for powder. I usually load this recipe into Remington STS hulls, but it will work in any 12 gauge hull.

As I say, I have no experience loading 16 gauge, but I suspect that 3 drams of powder puts you way over the Square Load limit with one ounce of shot.

 

[swopjan]

Swopjan, chilled lead shot are lead shot that contain only a small percentage of antimony, whereas magnum shot contain much more antimony. Both shot types have their drawbacks and their strengths. Chilled lead deforms a little more upon firing, but it is much more dense so you can really reach out and touch something.
Magnum shot are harder, deform less, thus patterning better. The drawback is that they don't have the "oomph" of chilled lead, so you might get a few clays that get hit but not broken.

Say you have a ping pong ball and a golf ball, and want to chuck it at me and I'm 50 feet away. Chilled lead is like the golf ball and magnum shot is like the ping pong ball. Ignore the hardness part. You will be able to throw a golf ball further and with more energy than the ping pong ball. I don't want anyone tracking me down and throwing ping pong balls at me, so don't get any funny ideas!

Thanks for the explanation, I understand now. And no funny ideas about throwing ping pong balls here, just some fond memories of a club in Thailand...

 

[Busyhands94]

Driftwood, thanks for the info on square shotgun loads! I think I'll load some shells up using square loads and see how they do.

Today I did more experimenting a little with my buddy's .410 over and under shotgun. I found that with 1 dram of powder (27 grains of BP) and a half ounce of shot I've got a pretty decent target load! Today I broke 15 out of 25 using these loads, I actually did better than I had with smokeless powder!

I actually used the same wads I make from milk cartons for my .44 Remington in the .410, it makes for a good seal in the tiny bore! I also tried using cigarette paper wrapped around the shot in a tube, that seemed to tighten up the shot column and make up for the lack of a proper shot cup. Either that or I just thought it did and shot better! But I did fire some 1200 FPS Fiocci shotshells from that same gun, same barrel and got 12 out of 25. For some reason I think the lower velocity did seem to help.

Do you guys think the slower pressure curve didn't deform the shot so much? I used chilled lead shot and card wads with a tube of cigarette paper around the shot. All I know is that it worked very well, I'm not so sure about the internal ballistics.

I also tried some more shells loaded with one dram of powder, one ounce of shot, four milk carton card wads and a felt wad to cushion the shot with a single .45 card wad as my overshot card. Those patterned nicely but not as well as the rolling paper wrapped shot.

Another load I tried was the same charge of powder and shot, only I heated up the shot and mixed wax in with it to hold the shot together longer. This was a VERY effective load. It patterned pretty tight, I got a lot of cloverleaf holes, that tells me some of the shot are sticking together.

Glad I could help clarify the difference between the two, swopjan. No baseballs either!

 

[TheRodDoc]

What mr16ga was trying to tell you is you need to check to see if your chamber is long enough for the 3" case.

If not the end of the case gets pushed past the shoulder into the barrel making that case to small at that point. this makes a restriction for the wads which builds chamber pressure. Also doesn't help the pattern either.

 

[Hellgate]

I load a lot of BP shotshells too. I frequently use plastic wads. I am convinced that the buildup of plastic fouling is not really due to melting off the base of the wad but due to plastic being "sanded" off the wad as it goes down the barrel being rubbed by BP fouling on the walls. After the charge passes, the fire of the powder charge melts the tiny fragments of plastic and it fuses with the black fouling onto the walls of the barrel. When I pick up my fired wads the bottom of the wad that is against the powder looks unscathed but the outer walls of the wad look scuffed from friction againsed the fouling in the barrel.
Even with straight walled hulls and especially with tapered hulls (Remington compression formed and the old AAs) I use a cup shaped over powder wad and then any combination that gives me a good crimp and pattern. If your gun has chokes it will be a little more forgiving when it comes to blown (donut) patterns. A cylinder bore gun is more likely to do what Driftwood said if there is too much powder for the shot load. A one piece steel shot cup is a lot thicker walled and they will stay together and not blow a hole in the pattern with a heavy charge. You might want to consider that option if you need tighter patterns. You may need to slice them once or twice.
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/PT1680-VP80-16ga-non-toxic-wad-250_bag/productinfo/222PT1680/

 

[Busyhands94]

What mr16ga was trying to tell you is you need to check to see if your chamber is long enough for the 3" case.

I see what you mean, basically the crimp unfolds and goes into the barrel and causes higher pressures? I'm not crimping the hulls at all, I load with the nail and dowel method.

Hellgate, I'll give those shot cups a try. I have been wanting tighter patterns for those longer shots. I think the geometry of my stuck isn't all that great to begin with so it does take some skill to hit with my shotgun, I'm thinking about making a new stock and forearm for it but with American white oak.
The shotgun doesn't weigh much so I think some nice and dense white oak would be a good option being heavier than the current wood on my gun.

~Levi

 

[Hellgate]

Busy,
You can put a mercury "recoil arrester" in the buttstock. It will add some weight to the gun, reduce recoil and is removeable if needed. I put one in my coach gun and it really helps. A lot less hassel than making a new stock.

 

[mr16ga]

The question I ask now is when you shoot the shells does the hull show any sign of being necked down or do they remain straight? if there is any sign of the hull being necked down you need to trim the case some.

You can have your chambers measured and you will know for sure what you have. Note that there is a thing called a tapered forcing cone where there is no abrupt transition between the chamber and the barrel tube, so it might be hard to measure the chamber if your chamber has tapered forcing cone. Most old guns have the standard forcing cone as the tapered forcing cone is something sort of new.

All my BP shotgun loading has been in a TC New Englander. I use a square load, an over the powder card wad, a red Winchester AA wad and an 1/8 inch over the shot wad. I see no reason it would not work in a hull.
I use No. 5 shot for everything, all the shot passes through what ever you shoot and you don't have to worry about breaking a tooth.

I have an old Remington SxS side hammer shotgun with "fluid steel" barrels I have been thinking of making some BP shells for it, but before I do that I need to run the gun past a gunsmith who knows old shot guns.

I seem to be running a 16 ga rescue shelter. It seems that once you have one 16 ga in the house more just seem to show up on the door step. I am up to 5 right now. I can see more in the future.

 

[Pete D.]

Questions

Today I broke 15 out of 25 using these loads, I actually did better than I had with smokeless powder!

Is that 16 yard Trap singles?
I load quite a lot of BP shotshells. I use, though, only paper or brass hulls. What kind of life are you fellows getting from the plastic reloads? I tried some commercial Goex shells years ago and it did not appear that hull life was going to be very long.
As noted by an earlier poster, I, also, use fiber wads and cards from Circle Fly.
Pete

 

[Busyhands94]

Mr16ga, the hulls don't seem necked down at all to me. That one in the picture has been reloaded a couple times.

And I think you might be right about 16 gauge scatterguns being addictive. Not only is it a good compromise between 12 gauge and 20 gauge, but I think 16 gauge side by side shotguns look fantastic! Not a .410 kid's shotgun, not a 12 gauge big bore (too thick for the graceful lines of a side by side) and just a tad thicker than a 20. I like the looks of them, they are pretty!

Pete, yes it was singles at 15 yards. As far as hull life goes I can't say much about the matter. I don't crimp my hulls and I'm now several reloads in and the hulls still are looking just fine. Strangely when I look inside an empty BP shotgun hull it really doesn't look all that dirty to me. Just a few specks of black stuff but that's it.

Then again I have been using FFFG, which burns cleaner than FFG and tends to generate higher velocities. Good right? Nope. If you are shooting 3 drams it's a pain in the butt to shoot and can blow a hole in the pattern. But with 2.5 drams it's a good target load. Very comfortable to shoot, my mother even shot a couple rounds of 16 and said they were better than the 12 guage or smokeless 20!

 

[Busyhands94]

Gone hunting with BP!

Today the president of the gun club where I belong named Charlie wanted me to kill some of the gophers that are leaving all these unsightly mounds and distracting the shooters. I said I was up to the task and grabbed my trusty 16 gauge and some shells loaded with 3 drams of Goex black powder and an ounce of shot.

I ended up killing two of the little buggers, I went varminting with BP!

Appearantly I'm the first guy at that club who shot gophers with a BP loaded 16 gauge! That load of 3 drams an an ounce of shot is a hell of a load for gophers but I knew they'd only stick their head out of the hole part of the way.

On my second gopher I saw him go into his hole and he was under about three inches of dirt. Lemme tell ya' something, those loads punched through that dirt like a deer slug at 3 feet!

I asked Charlie if I could bring a BP revolver for gophers sometime, he was thrilled with the idea! So I guess I'll be smokin' gophers with a .44 then!

~Levi