BP Shotgun loads

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Oohrah!

Oohrah!

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For SASS shooting, I bought some commercial shotgun BP loads for my Stoeger Coach. The box said 3 drams (is 81 grs) and 1-1/8 oz of 7.5 shot. These worked just fine on the shotgun knock downs at my SASS range.

So, I reloaded the hulls, with exactly the same load using wool felt wads (no lube), and they will not knock over the targets. Sure the plates are peppered with shot marks, but no knock down. They did seem to be spread out quite a bit.

Any suggestions?
 
I suspect you are getting a "donut" pattern using that much powder with felt wads. You can prove or disprove this by shooting some at paper. If you want to use that much powder, try using plastic cup wads, and again test on paper before using in a match.

I say, "If you want to use that much powder..." because 81 grains is WAY more than you need for SASS knockdowns. Some cowboys enjoy producing as much smoke and boom as possible, and if that is your thing, fine. But you will not find very many of the top blackpowder competitors using such heavy loads.

One of the nationally ranked blackpowder category competitors that I shoot with uses 12 gauge shells carrying between 25 and 30 grains of 2F under a plastic shot cup holding 7/8 ounce of 7 1/2 or 8 shot He gets enough smoke to satisfy category requirements and the light recoil allows very fast reloading for follow-up shots.

My pet 12 gauge load is 37 grains of 2F (2.5 CC Lee Dipper) under a white plastic wad, and 1 ounce of #8 shot. I get good tight crimps using Remington STS or Winchester AA hulls. And I don't have any problems with knockdowns at any range. In my opinion, any shell using more than 45 grains of black powder is wasting powder on SASS targets. Tweak your powder and shot volumes to get a good tight crimp. Trust me you do not want shot pellets leaking out of the shell and into your gun's action.

Historically, British shotgunners (who invented the wingshooting sports and fine shotguns) used the rule of thumb, "Less powder, more shot" to improve patterns. It's still a pretty good rule of thumb these days.
 
since I don't do sass programs I was wanting to find out for a hunting load someone please give me a hunting load using bp with card wads as I want to load some bp shotshell loads please! thanks didn't mean to highjack the thread but it does go along with it :)
 
midland man said:
since I don't do sass programs I was wanting to find out for a hunting load someone please give me a hunting load using bp with card wads as I want to load some bp shotshell loads please! thanks didn't mean to highjack the thread but it does go along with it :)
Click to expand...


Without knowing what you intend to hunt and what gauge shotgun you plan to use, it's difficult to provide recipes. Plus, I have never used black powder shells for hunting so I am reluctant to guess. I think my low-powered SASS loads would work OK for quail over dogs and rabbits, but cannot prove that from personal experience. I suspect waterfowl and pheasant loads would probably call for more powder than I use in SASS, probably like the OP's commercial load.

If you Google "black powder shotshell" you will get all kinds of websites to peruse.

Good luck.
 
Ballistic Products offer a book on BP shot shell loading. There are also recipes online. The easiest approach is an adjustable dipper, calibrated in drams and ounces. The rule of thumb for hunting loads is to match volume of powder to shot. 3 drams and 1 1/8 oz is such a load, but heavy. I shoot 20ga for SASS and load 2 drams with 3/4oz #9 shot. I would recommend no more than 2 1/4 drams and 7/8 0z with #7.5-#8 shot for 12 ga. If you still get too much spread, add a very short shot cup.
 
yep I just wanted to load 12 gauge at around 1 1/4oz shot loads with card wads so how much powder is average for this shot weight? need conversion from drams to grains :) thanks!
 
1 1/4 oz is a very heavy waterfowl load. It would be loaded with 3 1/2 Drams. 1 Dram equals 27 grs. 95 grs of 2f black powder is mighty stout...
 
You may have had too much powder, OR you may be using pepper poppers that need adjustment? Double check your distance to your poppers as well. 3 Drams is a bit stout but not with 1⅛ ounce of shot, and a felt wad should not be a problem. Your patterns should not be destroyed..., yet patterning is always a good idea when hand loading shells OR using muzzle loading shotguns.

A HUGE problem with plastic shotcup wads is they tend to melt when used with BP..., not every brand but the less expensive brands that reloaders tend to favor, and the plastic is a pain in the arse to remove. FYI the original Hoppe's #9 solvent used benzine in it's formula, and would dissolve plastic residue in shotgun barrels from early smokeless shells and plastic wads, with one swipe of a barrel mop. Unfortunately, benzine also gives you lung cancer, so it was removed from Hoppe's solvent, after smokeless powders were further improved, reducing their temps a bit. BP however, is still pretty hot.

I've always duplicated hunting loads in my BP shotshells for CAS, as well as when hunting with my caplock SxS or my single shot flintlocks. I looked at shotshell boxes, which when I started with black powder shells and muzzle loading shotguns, still listed "dram equivalent" (today they list velocity). So I used and still use, 2½ drams (which I round up to the nearest 5) so that's 70 grains of 2Fg, and I use ⅞ ounce of shot for 20 gauge, and 1 ounce for 16 gauge and 12 gauge. This works very well on upland birds using 5 - 7½ shot (depending on pheasants or quail) and I use 5 shot for squirrels.

LD
 
RPRNY's link in post #9 confirms that today's 12 gauge smokeless shells are loaded like old-time 10 gauge black powder shells.

Loyalist Dave is correct, plastic shot cups will leave plastic residue in the barrel when using black powder, but it is not that hard to remove. Some cowboys pour hot water down the barrels to flush it out, I prefer to spray the barrels with a mix of Ballistol and water. Let the solvent soak the crud for 15 minutes and then push it out with a wad of paper towel. In my opinion, plastic wads are so much more convenient and produce better patterns. Plastic residue in the barrels is so easily removed, I don't want to give up those advantages. You are going to have to clean the gun after using black powder anyway...

Before it was discontinued, those cowboys who liked to use a lot of powder in their 12 gauge shells used the WAA-12 (red) wad. Claybusters makes its twin, the CB1138-12. It decreases the space between the powder and shot by having a smaller cushion on the bottom.
 
Lots of modern shotguns don't do well with traditional felt or fiber wads, because of the way the barrels are bored.
Plastic wads do better.
Your load with the previously mentioned CB1138-12 will hammer the KDs.
I see it every week.
--Dawg
 
OK so learned something new..., I was using Winchester AA wads (the white ones) and they must have a lower melting point than the ones Prairie Dawg uses, cause a bore brush on the end of a cleaning rod and a power drill still wouldn't get the crap out of the barrel. Luckily, back in the 1980's I won my division in a three-gun match, and the match host gave out small bottles of original Hoppe's (with benzene put back in). They were made by the host's father, an industrial chemist in Raleigh, NC and he was the source for my information on the original Hoppe's formula. I remembered where I stashed that old bottle, and voila the plastic just dissolved right out.

As far as the fiber or felt wads not working well..., they are an old technology..., and I think the guys reloading them today might not know how to use them ??? ;) I was taught that you don't use them "dry", which I bet is the problem the reloaders who are familiar with the shot cups are doing.

To use felt wads, I was told, you melt 1 part beeswax, and one part olive oil (or tallow, or lard, or shortening) and mix that together while both are very warm. Then you either dip the felt wads into the melted lube using a toothpick gently inserted into the side of the wad, and hold it in the lube for two seconds, then place the lubed wad on a piece of aluminum foil to cool (remove the tooth pick and use it on the next wad, etc), OR some folks like to put their wads in a plastic mixing bowl, in a single layer, and pour the lube over the wads, covering the wads, and let lube cool. Then extract the wads. Melt the leftover lube, slowly, in the microwave on a low setting, and repeat or save the lube for another day.

Method two allows you to do more wads, more quickly, but the wads are soaked deeper, and you use up a lot more lube. But if you're doing a couple boxes of shells for a match..., the second method saves you a lot of time. ;)

I use the first method for wads that I am using for BP shotguns. Also a 50/50 mix of lube is kinda stiff and hard but has a higher melting point than a softer 1/3 beeswax 2/3 lard mix. OH and paraffin is NOT a substitute for the beeswax. Melting point is way too low, and on a hot summer day, you run the risk of contamination of your powder. :what:

Of course you can always buy the wads, prelubed from Midway: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...-thickness-pre-lubricated-felt-package-of-100

I hope this helps. I know Prairie Dawg's info on the shot cups should help me in the future. :thumbup:

LD
 
image.jpeg image.jpeg I shoot lots of BP for SASS and skeet. For SASS knockdowns 45 gr 2f does fine and cycles inertia triggers. 65 gr kills skeet. I have not chronographed these loads but I shoot them no differently than I do any other 1200 fps target load. I use plastic wads Winchester 12R which are short wads for heavy hunting loads but they help with overall fit due to volume of BP. One ounce of #8 shot tops it off. Good fit in Gun Club Remingtons or AA Winchester hulls. If I can break clay targets at about 22 yards with 24 inch cylinder barrels, I would guess these would be a good hunting loads for Pheasants or other game birds with one ounce or 1 1/8 of a larger shot.

To clean. Plug muzzles with a piece of paper towel. Spray clear windex with vinegar in chamber end, plug with paper towels and let sit for 20 min. Take a rod and brush. All plastic I will come out in one shot. Trust me.
 
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lotsa good info, thanks. Obviously, what I was doing doesn't work, so I have some experimenting to do. I know some of my fellow SASS shooters are using Winchester AAs, but they are not using BP, so I am reluctant to use plastic. I already make my own wads for C&B, so I may try that as well. I'll report back.
 
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