Future replacement of the 50 cal

[lbmii]

My "way out there" thought for the future replacement of the 50 cal is the following:

We start with a 45 caliber round of about 550 grains and 3200 fps with an electric primer.


The gun itself would have a bolt that would unlock via an electrical actuator. The firing mechanism would be all electric and computerized. The cycle rate and number of rounds per bursts would be adjustable by the shooter by way of dials or levers. Attached to the weapon would be some gyroscopic stability devices. Also attached to the weapon would be an adjustable electric horizontal acentric device that could be used to wobble the barrel on its' horizontal axis. This horizontal wobble would be controlled by the shooter and timed in with the electronic fire control system. You might adjust it to fire a burst of seven shots spread evenly across an arc of 2 meters at 500 meters and so forth. Or you might turn the acentric off.

To go a step further:

The bullet would have no attached shell casing or propellant. The weapon would have a combustion chamber perhaps off center from the bore. The bullet would be inserted into the breach via an electronically controlled bolt that would then retract back till it exposes the combustion chamber.

The combustion chamber would be fuel injected perhaps by two different chemicals, an oxidizer and a reducer. The mixture would be set off by a spark plug like device. Varying the fuel injection could control the velocity of the round. Different bullet types could be used for different situations and the fuel injection could adjust accordingly.

 

[BruceB]

Good grief.

I am instantly reminded of my Luddite feelings about cell phones and GPS instruments.

ALL I want my cellphone to do is be able to make and receive calls. That's ALL! All I want my GPS to do is tell me where I am, and the direction I want to go. That, again, is ALL!

An electronic monstrosity of a gun such as described above is the firearm parallel to current phones and GPS instruments. BECAUSE THEY CAN, engineers load all sorts of crap into these devices, as a demonstration of their own cleverness, and/or in search of some miniscule advantage in the marketplace.

ALL I want a machinegun to do is SHOOT, when, where, and as I need it! I do NOT want dials, adjustable power levels, fuel injection, blinking diodes or any other such foolery. I want a RELIABLE gun, and the more gadgets hung on a gun, the less reliable it will be, guaranteed. It's also evident that the concept ignores the astonishing amount of heat carried out of the weapon by the empty cases, and heat has been the cause of failure in many caseless gun systems.

The .50 Browning has served capably for an astonishing eighty-plus years. Just in the very recent past, new ammunitions have come into service which magnify its abilities and keep it right up to date, and indeed, even ahead of many far newer MGs.

I reckon I'm an ol' f--t, raining on the parade like this, but a gun HAS TO BE SOLDIER-PROOF, and electronic guns just won't stand the punishment. I work in a mine with many, many "new" computerized systems, most of them replacing methods from decades (or even further) back. Guess what causes the most "down-time"? THE COMPUTERS AND PLCs THEMSELVES!!!

The mine hoists I operate date back to the 1950s. and were originally intended to run with an ammeter and an oil-pressure gauge for instrumentation. Period. NOW, they're computerized, and there are over EIGHT HUNDRED possible "faults" which will shut down the machinery. Guess what? Virtually ALL those faults are within the computer system itself!

Phooey to computers and PLCs for soldiering at the sharp end. A gun needs to be useable and generally fixable by the people using it. Introduce a computer to the mix and you have an un-useable gun when ANYTHING goes wrong, unlike a Browning, operating on fixed and known physical laws, and repairable in the field.

 

[iamkris]

...other than that, it was a good idea!

 

[Clipper]

...K.I.S.S.!...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Sorry, but it just sounds like an easier loading version of Metal Storm, only more complicated in firing..

Why would you replace a .50 at 660-680 gr with a .45 at gr? So you have a tad more velocity, but less penetration. If the machine is that good, why not step up the power instead of down? Why not go with a .50 at 660-680 gr at 3200 fps? Heck, why not something even bigger, heavier, and maybe even faster? If you are going to have all the complicated technology, why screw yourself with a less capable weapon?

A single soldier can run an M82A1 or M107. What is the crew size to run the replacement?

 

[George S.]

My "way out there" thought for the future replacement of the 50 cal is the following:

We start with a 45 caliber round of about 550 grains and 3200 fps with an electric primer.


The gun itself would have a bolt that would unlock via an electrical actuator. The firing mechanism would be all electric and computerized. The cycle rate and number of rounds per bursts would be adjustable by the shooter by way of dials or levers. Attached to the weapon would be some gyroscopic stability devices. Also attached to the weapon would be an adjustable electric horizontal acentric device that could be used to wobble the barrel on its' horizontal axis. This horizontal wobble would be controlled by the shooter and timed in with the electronic fire control system. You might adjust it to fire a burst of seven shots spread evenly across an arc of 2 meters at 500 meters and so forth. Or you might turn the acentric off.

To go a step further:

The bullet would have no attached shell casing or propellant. The weapon would have a combustion chamber perhaps off center from the bore. The bullet would be inserted into the breach via an electronically controlled bolt that would then retract back till it exposes the combustion chamber.

The combustion chamber would be fuel injected perhaps by two different chemicals, an oxidizer and a reducer. The mixture would be set off by a spark plug like device. Varying the fuel injection could control the velocity of the round. Different bullet types could be used for different situations and the fuel injection could adjust accordingly.

So you're in the middle of the mother of all firefights and the gun quits and displays a blank blue screen in the gunsight telling you to contact customer support. You grab your radio and call for help and some guy in Pakistan answers....

 

[Gifted]

LOL. From the sound of it though, the politicians would be all over it. It would take decades to develop, and by the time it got issued, they'd be fighting libertarian susseccionists that are still using M2s that don't jam.

I did hear they came up with a new .50. Smaller, lighter, with a big complex recoil system to make it shootable.

 

[Justin]

So you're in the middle of the mother of all firefights and the gun quits and displays a blank blue screen in the gunsight telling you to contact customer support.

Hey, it worked for Hiro Protagonist...

 

[gazpacho]

Is this proposed gun French?

 

[garrett1955]

Hey Double Naught Spy.. I think Anzino Iorn works has you covered with the new 20mm vulcan round. I think they are the first to have a comercial model available in that cal.



http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm

 

[DWARREN123]

Why change it? It was good then, it's good now and will be good far into the future!

 

[Manedwolf]

The gun itself would have a bolt that would unlock via an electrical actuator. The firing mechanism would be all electric and computerized. The cycle rate and number of rounds per bursts would be adjustable by the shooter by way of dials or levers. Attached to the weapon would be some gyroscopic stability devices.

And if the SHTF and there's a sudden ambush of crazies, you have to make sure all the settings are correct before you can engage them? Would you really want the kind of beeps and error messages you get from an office copier or printer when you're being shot at?

I can see that...

*BANGBANGBANGCLUNK*
*BEEPBEEPBEEP*
"ERR 02 BELT JAM - CHECK LOWER FEED PORT"
"ERR 11 BOLT SOFTWARE ERROR - CONTACT SUPPORT"



There's a REASON why the "ma deuce" is still on vehicles and has been for most of the last century. It's SIMPLE and RELIABLE.

I would think that's what matters most!

 

[geekWithA.45]

As someone noted, it sounds like a different version of Reason to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason_(weapon_system)

REASON
Version 1.0B7
Gatling type 3 mm hypervelocity railgun system
Ng Security Industries, Inc.
PRERELEASE VERSION-NOT FOR FIELD USE
DO NOT TEST IN A POPULATED AREA
-ULTIMA RATIO REGUM-


And it DID work for Hiro because he got the patched 'wares from the manufacturer.

As an engineer, all I can say is:

A) Faith in electronics as the end all be all is misplaced. We use CPU's in toasters and everything else because it's cheap and well understood, not because its best.
A.1) When was the last time your toaster setting did something coherent?

Settings 1-3 = raw bread. Settings 4-6 = burnt toast. Setting 6-10 = charcoal.

B) Electronics crap out all the time, unless you multiply the cost and time x 10 to do it right.

B.1) When 10x budget is available, you can be assured it's being used to do 15x the stuff, instead of One Thing Right

B.2) Electronics and/or code that are hard, correct, and durable are almost always a labor of love that some Engineer slipped past the bean counters. They're rare as hen's teeth.

 

[KC&97TA]

There will be no changeing or replaceing the M2, I'll start a mutany before I let them, take them away, the .50 cal is simple; Brass to the grass, close the cover, cock once, cock twice, no safety, just a selector for semi or full auto... point in general direction of threat and squeez the butterfly. I have the Head Space and Timeing tools painted Red and Green, for my special children even.

I have enough trouble with supply getting me enough batterys for my NVG's, AAA's for my GPS and 123's for the Surefire's that's all I need is a gun that runs on batteries, reminds me of my AirSoft experiance today.

 

[ProficientRifleman]

No, No, NO...

Guns need to be mechanical and simple, so that they work in the worst case scenario. A .45/550/3200 would be fine. You could shorten and straiten the 50 BMG case, then neck it down a bit. That would be a perfect answer to a ban on those EVIL .50 caliber rifles...

 

[Diomed]

The bullet would have no attached shell casing or propellant. The weapon would have a combustion chamber perhaps off center from the bore. The bullet would be inserted into the breach via an electronically controlled bolt that would then retract back till it exposes the combustion chamber.

Why bother with chemical propellant at all? If you're loading the thing with a bunch of electronics, just go all the way and make it a railgun or gauss gun or whatever.

It vaguely reminds me of the smartgun from Aliens.

 

[nyresq]

and all this crap begs the question:

what is wrong with the 50 cal M2 that it needs to be replaced???

seems to be chugging along quite well over in the middle east. at least from our stand point. I am sure there are a few dismembered jihad ragheads who would disagree and say it should be all electronic and complicated....

 

[evan price]

No no no, no, no.

Ma Deuce has been around for as long as she has because she sends the mail. Every day, every where, dead nuts reliable, deadly piece of hardware. The platoon heavy weapons will change but M2 is the choice for vehicle weapons. First to be accepted, a potential replacement would have to be :
More reliable
More firepower
Less costly to operate
Lighter
More controllable
etc.

And I don't see that happening.

As previously stated, if you are going to that trouble, why not make it a Gauss gun? Well, the power source would be problematic. You would need a 18-wheeler to carry the power source & high-output capacitors to make a Gauss gun with a rate of fire similar to M2's.

This actually sounds more like the rocket guns the Nazis were developing in WWII.

 

[Preacherman]

The replacement for the Ma Deuce is already well into testing.

From Defence Industry Daily ( http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/11/xm307-madeuce-replacement-gets-more-investment/index.php ):

XM307 Ma-Deuce Replacement Gets More Investment

Posted 30-Nov-2005 06:42





General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products Inc. of Burlington, VT received a $6 million modification to a cost-plus-award-fee contract for a remotely operated variant of the XM307 Advanced Crew Served Weapon System. Remote operation systems like the Rafael OWS, Thales SWARM, and the Recon/Optical CROWS allow a weapon to be sighted, rotated, and fired from inside a vehicle, trading off reduced situational awareness for less crew exposure to hostile fire.

The lightweight XM307 is being developed by General Dynamics under a 2004 contract worth up to $95 million through December 2007. It will replace the M2 .50 cal "Ma Deuce" machine gun, which has been in service since the 1920s. Here in the 21st century, the USA has had to ramp up .50 cal ammunition production because "Ma Deuce" remains one of the most requested weapons in the Iraqi theater of war. Truly a hard act to follow - but the future M307/ M312 has a few new tricks up its gun sleeve.

The 50-pound XM307 is actually intended to replace two "old reliables" on the battlefield. One is the 84-pound M2 .50 caliber heavy machine gun, which weighs in at 128 pounds with its tripod. The other is the two decades-old MK19 Mod-3 40mm grenade machine gun, a popular choice for some vehicles that offers devastating suppressive fire capabilities. It weighs 79 pounds, or 137.5 pounds with its tripod. Some US Special Forces currently use a different, lighter (63 pounds, 107 pounds with tripod) 53 H&K 40mm GMG as a man-portable "ace in the hole" when serious firepower is called for, but the XM307 would offer a common replacement for all.





Because of its light weight, there is even talk of having the XM307 replace some medium machine guns (7.62mm M240Bs). This might be an especially good option in naval roles, and on some wheeled vehicles and helicopters.

With its 25mm air-bursting, armor-piercing, and incendiary munitions, the XM307 offers a lighter alternative that still packs a lethal punch. Its 25mm ammunition consists of grenade-like rounds that are programmed to detonate at a given distance. Enemy in a trench? It detonates over their heads. Enemy in a building? Don't spray the structure with conventional machine gun fire. Use the single-shot option, and put a couple shots through the window that detonate in the room and spray it with shrapnel. Even at $20 per 25mm bullet, the results will sometimes prove cost-effective as well as battlefield effective.

The revolutionary technology behind the air-burst munition involves integration of the fuse and fuse setter into the weapon's fire control system. In a process that includes three microbursts of information, the fire control system lazes the target and determines the range. That information is transferred to the round through galvanic hard points as it is loaded into the chamber. The fuse reads the data, verifies it and retransmits it as a safety check. Multiple layers of coding and verification ensure accurate range data and protects against premature detonation of the round in or near the weapon.

General Dynamics is developing the new family of 25mm ammunition, while Raytheon is responsible for the full solution fire control. The fire-control system will include a laser range finder and a day-night sight, and can be upgraded to include other modern equipment as well.

The major uncertainty with the XM307 is that this new computer controlled ammunition has not been used in combat yet. Until it is, no one will be quite sure just how much of an improvement it really is.

As a combination of insurance policy and flexibility option, therefore the .50-caliber XM312 is derived from the XM307, and can be created by replacing only five parts. What's left is an upgraded version of the old M2 that weighs only one-third as much and is capable of firing all of the current .50-caliber ammunition. This includes, but is not limited to, the standard M33 ball round, the M8 armor-piercing incendiary (API), the M903 saboted light armor penetrator (SLAP), and the Mk 211 multipurpose round (penetrates, fragmentation and incendiary).

The one improvement the XM312 would not include is a rate of fire rapid enough to suit it for an anti-aircraft or anti-helicopter role. The existing M2 has shared this issue since before World War 2, however, and US troops seem to love it all the same.

The service plans to have the M307 and M312 in the hands of soldiers by FY 2008.

Work on the contract to beef up the M307's remote operation capabilities will be performed in Burlington, VT and is expected to be complete by June 30, 2006. This was a sole source contract initiated on Sept. 19, 2005 by the Army Tank-Automotive and Armaments Command at Picatinny, NJ (W15QKN-04-C-1093).

 

[James T Thomas]

guilding the lily

I hope you are not discouraged by all the nay -saying. Please keep up the thought processes; our nation needs another John Browning -even if it is "in the making."

Most of the posts have been from men with experience it appears, however also keep in mind that our fighting men do not always end up with the best weapon for the situation; politics, money, contracts, influence, and all.

I do hope the staff at material command and those in procurement remember the lessons of history. The super duper and therefor expensive weaponry seldom make the strategic or even tactical difference in the defense of our country. The old NAZI war machine couldn't make enough guns, guns, guns, bombs, bombs, etc. to keep up with the losses.
If our planners presumethat our fighting forces will be smaller, elite, better educated, sophisticated units of future warfare, they may have sealed our fate before the battle is over.

Technical improvements in weaponry cannot take the place of the man on the ground with a weapon in his hand. It has always come to that.
No, I'm not related to Adm. Z., but the old man was wise.

 

[depicts]

Well, let me be one to say I like your ideas. Especially the no case, dual chemical propellant. Some of the other ideas like the horizontal cammed barrel and intermittant firing and burst control sounds like a great weapon to be remotely deployed on a perimiter line right next to the old fashioned concintina wire and tin cns we used in Nam.

I would have loved to be sitting in my bunker and hear movement outside the wire, and have a gun like you suggest about 200 or 300 yards out in front of me, at the edge of any cleared perimiter, to knock down bad guys.

I can see it being pretty effective on a drone aircraft too, for specialized missions, again with remote control and no chance of loss of life to personnel.

I know you still need feet on the ground, but a lot about this gun has possabilities to me.

Preacherman, that General Dynamics weapon looks like some major improvements as well. Sure would have liked four or five of them on our firebase on the mountiantops in Vietnam. We had 50's, but exploding air burst and all those goodies (actually we did have some of those) sound might good to me too, as long as I don't have to hump it

 

[Mannlicher]

Your idea is rife with things that can go wrong at the worst time. The MaDeuce works just fine as it is. Nothing has been manufactured yet that is materially better, or more effective. As long as things need killing, the BMG .50 will be there to do it.

 

[Dain Bramage]

We need to punch up the caliber, maybe up to .57. Add an electric trigger and a quick removable barrel, and then we'd have a......no wait. That's the Russian KPVT.

 

[redranger1]

i cannot believe that the idea of a fully electronic gun is practical, not to mention to even suggest it for military use. you know back in the 50's and 60's guys could work on their own cars with just a simple understanding of mechanics when they had a problem. now days unless you have an electrical engineering degree and a 500 page wiring diagram and expensive diagnostic tools you have to take it in to be fixed. i love mechanics and i can work on my guns and i want to keep it like that! mechanical things can have their own failures, they dont need electronics to compound them. lets just leave the electrical contoled guns to the paintballers!

 

[taliv]

we'll get electric guns as soon as the generation that's still afraid of their PC dies off

So you're in the middle of the mother of all firefights and the gun quits and displays a blank blue screen in the gunsight telling you to contact customer support.

and God knows we've NEVER had a mechanical failure before

the next generation of recruits are probably more comfortable 'rebooting' their rifle after a failure than trying to fix a mechanical problem.