FWIW: Keltec P3AT

[grislyatoms]

I have been kicking around the idea of getting a compact little .380 for a couple of months, so I went to my local shop last night looking for a P3AT. There was one there last week, last night it was gone.

I asked the guys when they would be getting more in, the response was "Never. If you want me to special order one for you, I will, but I will not carry them anymore"

I asked why.

Seems that every single P3AT they have received over the last month or so has had to go back to the factory at least once. There was also a claim that they were getting the "run around" from Keltec customer service. I also heard one of the guys say "Mr. So-and-so doesn't even want his anymore, he just wants his money back."

Yikes.

I am just relaying this FWIW, please don't flame the messenger.

By the way, I went home with a Bersa Thunder .380 (from another shop, first shop didn't have any). Not quite as compact as I wanted, but the price was right and it seems to be a good little gun.

 

[Avizpls]

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

Odd. All of the ones I've encountered have been great. Mine has never malfunctioned but once, and the customer service is by far the best of the ones I've dealt with (Kel-Tec, Taurus, SW, Kimber, and Ruger)

 

[gringolet]

going to find out

I am going to find out..got my p-32 in box now for return to factory.
became a single shot...fire one and it will eject empty and feed new
round but will not recock the hammer. So, back to kel-tec...if
I get lousy service on this return I'll post it.

What problem(s) are people having with the 380's?

 

[Soybomb]

If you hear something in a gun store, odds are its actually the opposite of the truth.

 

[kokapelli]

The P-3AT fits nicely in my pocket and the Bersa does not!


Because my three P-3ATs are all 100% reliable, my Bersa is soon going bye, bye, because of it's size and inability to be pocket carried.

For me, the P-3AT has made the Bersa irrelevant.

Is there any other business that has so many know nothing, dumb as a rock sales people as the gun business?

 

[Dr.Doug]

My P3AT has been flawless in 200+ rounds with mixed ammo. If you're interested in info about Kel-Tec products & service, check out www.ktog.org.

BTW, the September '06 issue of American Rifleman has an article on the P3AT.

Doug

 

[Green Lantern]

Hope that article's in "America's First Freedom" too so I can read it...

I thought this was gonna be a thread about how darn hard Kel-Tykes are to come by in many places. It may turn into that if the shop had that one for a while, and hasn't actually called to check availability on them yet...

My P3AT has been flawless too. But I've heard of bad ones.

I also own a Bersa Thunder .380, also a GREAT little gun. A bargain that can't be beat. But as a "pocket carry" blaster, it leaves a bit to be desired...too big for the role. The grips are great, but quite thick.

I've pulled it off before, but I'll take my P3AT for that role any day!

Like kokapelli, I'm having a hard time justifying keeping the Bersa. But unlike him I have not resolved to get rid of it. It was my first autoloader (sentimental value), and it does work flawlessly.

Plus, my brother bought one first. He sold it when he was hard up for cash. Even back before I bugged him to going to the CCW class with me, though, he got lonely for it and bought him ANOTHER Bersa .380! (both of his were duo-tone, mine is blued with stainless controls).

EDIT - Even if I do sell my Bersa, I may hang on to one of the spare mags for the baseplate. FYI, if you want to sacrifice some concealability to gain a better grip, you can replace the factory KT mag baseplate with a Bersa one (or a base from an NAA Guardian too I think).

 

[TC-TX]

IMO, All of the negative press on the Kel-Tec line of pistols:Total Garbage.

I own 4 and could not be more pleased... Great Shooters all, great Values as well...

Recognize then for what they are (small, inexpensive, high-value, accurate, lightweight, life-time-warranty, plastic autoloaders) and you will be delighted!

I am EAGERLY Awaiting the genesis on the Newest Stable member - the PF-9...

Feel confident if you are about to make a Kel-Tec purchase...

I recommend them highly to all of my students who are seeking this kind of tool.

BTW - the Bersa purchase is also a Great Value Purchase... Congrats and Enjoy!

 

[leadcounsel]

Well I hate to be the naysayer, but my new 2nd Gen P3AT was a piece of garbage. Fail to eject, fail to feed, week mag eject spring so the mag would drop constantly... but it was accurate.

UGH...

I sent it to KT and they basically replaced the whole gun with a new one with the same serial number except the mag, which I'm not sure if it's the original. New slide, new frame...! Now, after only a couple boxes it is reliable.

Here's a question. On my replacement there is a tiny piece on the frame which is removable. It's a small square which fits between the frame and the slide, probably 2mm square. My first gun didn't have this. Anyone have a similar piece and can post a picture?

 

[Bobo]

That piece is the ejector. All SGs have had them, they fall out easily and can get lost during disassembly. Call Kel-Tec service they will send you a new one two under the warranty.

 

[pocketgun]

It is the ejector. My guess is that a bunch of gunshop monkeys played with your original pistol before you bought it, lost the ejector, and wrecked the mag catch by slapping magazines in place like a 1911. Hold the button in when you insert and remove magazines and it will last for years. If you simply must do speed reloads, go to KOTG.org, find a member named Beach, and buy one of his NiCr cast catches that will last forever. They probably damaged the slide and firing pin by repeatedly dry-firing it, hence the replacement.

Rule of thumb: don't believe anything you hear in a gunstore, and you will be well-informed about 90% of the time.

edited to add: Oops, cross posted with you Bobo...

 

[MR.G]

The Bersa is a nice gun for the money, but is too big for my pocket. I have owned several KelTec P-3AT and P-32 pistols. They are the best gun I have found for pocket carry. My current P-3AT has been fired over 400 rounds without any problems, and is still in great shape.

 

[sjones63]

I have a 2nd generation p3at and have put around 300 rounds through it and haven't had a single problem of any kind.sj

 

[rhubarb]

I also ignored the bad reviews and reports of problems and bought a KelTec. After 3,000 rounds and numerous breakages, I don't have it anymore. I will admit that after the first 1500 rounds it never had a failure that was not due to a breakage.

My P3AT has been flawless in 200+ rounds

I wouldn't even call a Sig or Glock or Ruger that had not failed in 200 rounds "flawless." That's barely gettin warmed up. That's hardly a half day of plinking, much less a workout. To suggest that a questionable pistol has passed any kind of reliablility/durability milestone at 4 boxes of ammo is naive. That's one of my pet peeves on gun forums: "My XXXX has never failed me in all the few hundred rounds I've put down range."

IMO, All of the negative press on the Kel-Tec line of pistols:Total Garbage.

The problem with the KelTecs isn't so much that they aren't perfect. I used to have a Marlin 60 that had untold thousands of rounds through it without cleaning and would occasionally stovepipe. No big deal. A plinking gun need not be failure-free.A defensive pistol, though, must not fail. KelTec's small pistols' sole use is for self-defense. If they aren't reliable, then they're good for nothing.

I don't expect to get my axe ground by discouraging people from buying KelTecs. I would like for KelTec to realize that they need to do better. I hope that at some point in the future that posts about Keltecs will be something like, "Remember a few years ago when KelTecs weren't reliable?" followed by, "Yeah, hard to believe that such a trusted name as KelTec ever broke. Glad they shaped up." I really like the designs and ideas they implement, but the materials and quality control leave much to be desired. I think that their guns would still be a value at 150% of their present selling point if they all worked.


Edited for clarity.

 

[Euclidean]

It's all relative.

I like my Leatherman Surge, but my full sized tool box will do the job much better.

Yet I carry the Leatherman, it'll usually suffice or else hold out long enough for me to patch the problem so I can bring in the toolbox.

I like my Detective Special. It's a fine firearm for its intended purpose. I do not hold it to the same standard as my GP-100 however.

If I put my Colt DS and my GP-100 side by side and start firing each without any cleaning or maintenance indefinitely, the Ruger is going to be going for a lot longer. They'll both do well but the Ruger will embarass the Detective Special.

Yet I still carry the Detective Special at times when it's the best gun for the job.

 

[denfoote]

Like Leadcounsel, mine (1st gen) had to be replaced. This was because of a defective assembly pin (also of the first iteration). It kept backing out during fire and as a result, the frame was damaged. I got a new pin (second revision) and a new frame (according to the ATF, this became a brand new pistol). All is good now!!!
However, I HATE pocket carry!!
I carry mine in a Uncle Mikes nylon IWB holster!!!

 

[kokapelli]

We all know that even the most expensive guns can have problems.

If there any doubts about that, just do a search and you will find plenty of Glock, Kimber etc problems.

But what's important is that the problem can be corrected and the pistol made reliable.

99% the problems I have seen reported with KelTec pistols are corrected and the pistols end up very reliable.

 

[Rotorflyr]

rhubarb,
You make some valid points, but also remember that most defensive pistiols also aren't going to have 1000's and 1000's of rounds put thru them, so if they have no problems in 300-500 rounds, I'd say they are reliable enough for defensive use.
I mean think about it on the flip side of what you said,

bob:"My Sig has 60billion trouble free rounds thru it"
steve:"Cool"

2 day's later

ogre:"Give me all your money, or I'll eat you"
bob(pulling Sig out of holster): Click "Hey, where's the bang??? "
ogre: "Burp"

Let's face it, expensive or inexpensive, any pistol can fail.
If the majority of Kel-Tec owners are reporting their pistols to be relaible, I'd say that Kel-Tec's are likely relaible

My point being, you say that you

also ignored the bad reviews and reports of problems and bought a KelTec. After 3,000 rounds and numerous breakages, I don't have it anymore. I will admit that after the first 1500 rounds it never had a failure that was not due to a breakage.

Guns like the Kel-tec's (P3AT's and P32) aren't designed to have that many rounds put thru them, they aren't compitition guns, they're meant to be back-up's or extremely light duty weapons. You maybe put a mag thru them every other, every third trip to the range after testing them with your choice(s) of carry ammo

 

[Euclidean]

Guns like the Kel-tec's (P3AT's and P32) aren't designed to have that many rounds put thru them, they aren't compitition guns, they're meant to be back-up's or extremely light duty weapons. You maybe put a mag thru them every other, every third trip to the range after testing them with your choice(s) of carry ammo

Exactly. I feel the same way about most snubnose revolvers.

Kel Tec does not market or sale their products the same as a service pistol. They clearly say in their product descriptions these small pistols have a very specific use. They are quick to guarantee 6,000 rounds.

This isn't something to replace or meant to compete with your Sig/Glock/Smith and Wesson/Ruger autoloader/revolver, it's something to augment it, another tool in the toolbox. It's something to help guarantee you always have a BUG, or barring that you always have something better than your fist. It's a throwdown gun.

Look at the other things in that size category, without getting an old Colt or something, what else is there? It's a lot smaller than even the J frame revolvers. Personally I would prefer a J frame sized revolver over the P3AT, but it's not a valid comparison size wise. The only things I can think of are the various NAA offerings and Seacamps and the R9, and those have just as many reported problems if you look around enough, and to be very blunt the Kel Tec is cheaper. If you have to do a little bit of reliability work on it, then so be it. No one on this board questions it when an expensive custom or semi custom 1911 has an issue and has to be repaired, but apparently Kel Tec is not afforded such luxury.

This is the beauty of the free market, if you don't want such a gun, you're free to not buy it or to get rid of it at any time.

 

[alamo]

The only things I can think of are the various NAA offerings and Seacamps and the R9, and those have just as many reported problems if you look around enough

You do see some problems reported with NAA & Seecamp but not quite as many as KT - the major reason is that very few NAA & Seecamp pistols are made. KT makes 14 times more .32s and 35 times more .380s than NAA. The last production figures available are from 2004 - here they are:

.32

Seecamp - 1,032
NAA - 953
Kel-Tec - 14,882

.380

Seecamp - 410
NAA - 1,002
Kel-Tec - 34,969


See the links at the bottom of this page and go to the table entitled "Pistol Production by U.S. Manufacturers - 2004". It is the 5th one down on the left.

http://www.shootingindustry.com/02pages/SpecRep.html

 

[Euclidean]

Thanks Alamo, but that brings up another point: there's a lot of threads about how terrible Glocks are on this forum alone. A lot of them tend to be locked and thrown away I would imagine because they can get trollish, but they exist.

Does that mean Glock products are bad because there's a lot of complaints about them? No it just means a lot of people have Glocks

If I went by what I read on these boards, I'd know that all of my firearms are complete junk. I have Smith and Wesson and Ruger and Colt revolvers, and Springfield Armory and Ruger autoloaders for instance. I've seen multiple people having trouble with all of them.

People, by nature, tend to not comment about a product unless it gives them a problem. Any one of us is more likely to get livid about a product that doesn't work than we are to compliment one that does work. This isn't a bad or a good thing it's just human nature. It comes from the natural circumstance that guns which work are the norm.

Kel Tec has a very lax policy on parts and letting you repair your own pistol, they will repair the pistol with as little hassle as possible if you prefer, and they're upfront about what they intend for the product to be used for. The large number of threads about them just means a lot of people have them.

I don't see a problem, because with any gun you are taking a gamble. They're all man made. It's good to know what you might encounter so you can make a more informed decision, but there's no "proof" here of anything other than certain people had certain problems with certain pistols. Multiple internet anecdotes are not data.

I agree that one should use what they read here as a cautionary tale, and that some guns really are universally junk, but those guns usually have no supporters at all and the Kel Tecs have quite a few.

 

[Ron James]

Odd, I sent My little 32 back because it shot two inchs to the left, In less than a week it was returned with a new barrel. Customer service was very nice. I am so impressed with my little Kel-Tec I would recommend one to anyone wanting a good concealable and relaible gun.

 

[ShelbyV8]

I have range guns and combat guns. My P3AT is a pocket gun and if it shoots 7 times in a row (which it will) it has done it's job.

 

[grislyatoms]

I learned quite awhile ago to take a large dose of NaCl with most stuff I hear, particularly from gun shop folks and gun "experts".

These folks were so adamant about their new policy, however, I began to think maybe Keltec was having tooling problems or some such.

So you folks that have had problems, Keltec WILL make it good?

It seems more and more I am having problems with NIB guns that don't work properly, and few things tick me off more. Should it? Probably not, but it does.

Thanks for all the input, that will give me something to ruminate over until my next purchase.

 

[LightningJoe]

I'll add that to my list of things for which to be thankful. Apparently, the gunstore where I go is significantly above average. Won't carry Kel-Tecs anymore? Gosh, why carry guns anymore? Sell linoleum.